IRC log started Sun Feb 27 00:00:02 2000 the CTO happens to be a cognitive science fellow with lots of ideas online in html [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0227 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us713.javanet.com]) 12:10am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us216.javanet.com] has joined #tunes foo bar 12:20am well, in about 4-5 months intelligenesis will have a product which will be a nice kludge for arrow Cool no, not cool Not cool? Whys it nice then? ;) no, because it's very proprietary and lame Ugh in java, dude Ouch as if they have a choice :) 12:30am but seriously i can take a decent amount away from the cto's research ideas and apparently they won't grok the importance of reflection i love it. everything i say is publicly available, which places all my ideas directly in front of any idiot's nose, and yet no one will pick up on them because they don't grok Hmm * eihrul/#tunes recalls an adequate metaphor, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." (no pun intended) heh What if he didn't know how to drink? well, he didn't drink... well in order for that statement to mean much, we have to come up with a real quality system * eihrul/#tunes loads the concurrency paper. 12:40am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) * water/#tunes 's eyelids are getting heavy well good night all -:- water [water@tnt-10-45.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 01:10am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Erection reset by queer) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.142.22.SanJose1.Level3.net] has left #tunes [] -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn108.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes * Fufie/#tunes yawns.. ya morning -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- Kidteck [x@pm512-07.dialip.mich.net] has joined #tunes Anyone alive?? -:- Kidteck [x@pm512-07.dialip.mich.net] has left #tunes [] 06:10am -:- beholder [beholder@216.95.187.195] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial759.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Foo Bar wuzzup? abi: what's up? i haven't a clue, fare hrrm abi, abi? i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn ah she's sooo gaklosmontic! actually, she's the gaklosmonticest. that's nice so, anything new at tunes? oh man, I just can't get it right. I get one comment moderated up, then instantly another one is moderated down! * Kaufmann/#tunes is doomed to eternal 58 Karma purgatory Kaufmann: Which story are you commenting on? beh, the post that got moderated down was re. the GoHip thing Ahh got some mod points to spare? Nope, I don't mod anything ;) Any my comments never recived a good or a bad moderate, so I guess they were ignored 07:30am hrrrm Ask fare, he's probably got a few naaah, after the whole debacle with RMS and the GPL situation, his situation on Slashdot is probably not very good right Faré? well, I just posted a +1-bait comment on the ICANN story, so it just might make up for my loss anyway. Spend a lot of time on /.? yep * Kaufmann/#tunes 's a certified Karma whore abi, I am also a certified Karma whore okay, Kaufmann. beholder? Hmm, she's slow today abi, beholder? somebody said beholder was the originator of the UniOS project, member of the Tunes project, and co-designer of the AKOS project bbl -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet.) 07:40am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp16.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- future [xdef@209.6.184.165] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff beholder: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations) ack.. my enter key is sluggish 09:00am -:- SignOff future: #TUNES (Read error to future[209.6.184.165]: EOF from client) -:- water [water@tnt-9-70.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes screw the acm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us145.javanet.com] has joined #tunes yo sup? trolling for papers in new venues "Type-Secure Meta-Programming" hehe "Constraint-based Partial Evaluation of Rewriting-based Functional Logic Programs" but a lot of the papers are on acm or not online at all 09:50am any way i could assist? not really... the papers i'm looking at are 98-00 so most likely the results of the research haven't propagated very far just for reference, this is where i'm trolling: http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/theindex.html 10:00am -:- mibin [mibin@an1-354.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes hmms. muting state has the effect of creating new environments for our immutable friends (environments being sets of bindings as in scheme e.g.) btw, there's a variant of the Peano axioms to express arithmetic as rewrite logic you're not an acm member? um no $10 per paper would kill me abi: acm? i don't know, eihrul http://www.acm.org yet another overpriced cs journal? heh if you madea nice list and mailed me I can probably see if I can pick them up the next time I am fetching papers hmmm cool thanks I get papers free what medium? pdf ok or you could join acm.. it's not too expensive what kind of member would i be though? hopefully a nice member ;) i'm not a professional or a student heh I have student membership which the institute pays and most institutes and decent labs pay for membership ah... now i remember the acm... it was that foul title that was hiding thread migration research papers from me indeed -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[an1-354.tiscalinet.it]) eih: make a list for fufie :) well, i found the papers or maybe if i can get membership i just took the names, went to cora, tracked down the author's sites usually the papers are also on people's homepages as well *usually* yes.. it's when usually fails it is nice to be a student or work in a decent place :) 10:20am * water/#tunes wishes *he* worked in a decent place -:- lar1 [larman@2Cust109.tnt26.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes hm i think that i have to apply for professional membership if at all 10:30am no, it's not worth it right now they want your first-born child? no, it's just another hassle i can do without Whats acm? http://www.acm.org -:- mibin [mibin@an1-924.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes Eagad They just keep saying the same thing over and over any of you know your emacs modes and how to configure colouring in lisp-mode? -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial137.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Oh my god. ? * Kaufmann/#tunes is the victim of irresponsible (sp?) moderation /.? yes I've already gotten two -1, Offtopic *shakes head* (send kaufmann 'sympathy) idiot moderators thanks Fufe If anyone's got any mod points to spare, now would be a good time to use them... help me get back on my feet 10:40am ...all because I said Dragonball was a bad Japanese cartoon. Which it is, mind you. why did you have to say it? speak up about things that are important to you Kaufie! water, why not? * water/#tunes shrugs i don't see the point in /. myself I mean, if _I_ deserve a -1, Offtopic for mentioning Dragonball in my posts, then so does Malda. Karma whore! ;P wow. letting the editors of /. distibute karma around umm.. I think Malda is worshiped by the /. crowd and any /. geek want to be his groupie it's all healthy and natural ;) * water/#tunes returns to papers Kaufmann++ I think all idiot moderators should be shot on sight. Specifically, anyone who moderates me down should be detected immediatelyand the fool's account should be deleted from the system. :) heh *ahem* use osopinion water, OSO is even worse heh yes, they have taste ;) it's a breeding ground for dumbasses who think that not posting an article because it's crap constitutes censorship. Seriously though, I think moderation shouldn't be anonymous. I think you should be allowed to know who moderated you down and why. hm sounds like /. * Kaufmann/#tunes plants a big kiss on mibin! *smooooooch* thanks dude -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us145.javanet.com]) 10:50am afk -:- Kaufmann is now known as Kaufmann_away heh Kaufmann++ Anyone know of a site the compares different file systems? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us145.javanet.com] has joined #tunes search around on google i'm sure there is one * water/#tunes now groks why linear typing helps with concurrency 11:00am do share not yet, but tell me when you grok those deterministic concurrency papers -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[an1-924.tiscalinet.it]) they explain the concepts... the relation of that to linear logic is then fairly direct -:- Kaufmann_away is now known as Kaufmann 11:20am Gonna watch _Face/Off_... see you all later bye kauf -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet.) * hcf/#tunes sells the info of what movie kauf will be watching 11:30am abi: bob? bugger all, i dunno, eihrul lol M$ Bob? no, 99bob what was the factoid key for it? abi: 99bob abi doesn't know that either abi: scan for bob hm no matches abi: 99bob is at http://www.ionet.net/~timtroyr/funhouse/beer.html abi: 99bob? 99bob is probably at http://www.ionet.net/~timtroyr/funhouse/beer.html 11:40am good key choice when in doubt of whether something is in abi's "brain" grep www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/db/* 11:50am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us145.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us145.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[2Cust109.tnt26.sfo3.da.uu.net]) -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust90.tnt22.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- n8j [skjdhf@1Cust135.tnt26.det3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- n8j has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: hi -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || WebMind @ http://www.intelligenesis.net/ hi nate sorry hi is there anything you want to talk about? not really (subliminal) Say somthing useful about slate to water (/subliminal) (subliminal) heh (/subliminal) 12:50pm hm truly recursive message-passing is possible given immutable state er... s/immutable/mutable/ otherwise, recursive code would be a co-recursive definition since you'd be defining a function call in terms of itself traditional oo lets you recurse over *other* objects that share the same protocol and so does fp hm mutable isn't even the right word maybe clonable immutable 01:00pm eihrul: you ready to discuss? what in particular? concurrency, mutability, functional/oo stuff, maths, you name it still reading the conc paper ok let me know if/when you're ready -:- n8j [skjdhf@1Cust135.tnt26.det3.da.uu.net] has left #tunes [] -:- revned [none@dialup-209.246.80.20.NewYork2.Level3.net] has joined #tunes hi rev what can we do ya for? :) 01:10pm * water/#tunes just had an odd thought if we had an object with the right kind of meta-behavior, its co-recursive methods might actually mean something hm * eihrul/#tunes afks. -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff revned: #TUNES (Ping timeout for revned[dialup-209.246.80.20.NewYork2.Level3.net]) -:- revned [none@dialup-209.246.80.20.NewYork2.Level3.net] has joined #tunes hey revned do you want to talk? hey water what you got in mind to talk about? mostly tunes stuff or squeak :) i'm not even familiar with this channel 01:20pm www.tunes.org what brought you here? curiousity? yeah basically okay, well i can explain just about anything about tunes and related trivia w/ exception of os coder stuff, for that talk to air what is this project for? it's a language/os-type project based on reflection what is reflection? it's where the programmer has access to and can change how the language implementation works within the programming language itself (i.e. without having to muck with c source files) you grok or no? no hm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us145.javanet.com]) what languages have you ever used? don't know much about programming :( oh ok -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us145.javanet.com] has joined #tunes well then it takes a little to explain hm it ok well i gtg i'll bbbl oh :) -:- SignOff revned: #TUNES (Leaving) hm * water/#tunes wonders how many people who frequent OpenProjects have never really programmed *shrug* but many of them will eventually program something I guess yeah some of them might even mature into fine hackers heh. they'd have no clue about squeak's power without a lot of explaining (or lisp for that matter) one must mature into understanding of squeak if i had time, i'd put some effort into making it work a lot better as Erik Naggum (of lisp fame) says, CL is a language one graduates into.. I have heard him use the word 'matres' as well matures even 01:30pm I think one doesn't really realise the power of CL until one knows half-dozen languages, have hacked code in several CS fields and generally gone through the larval stage hm a vpl conference in seattle in september vpl? visual programming language what is that? ever heard of prograph? something with a dialog editor and clicky-click interface? nope I am not familiar with prograph no it's a language where the syntax of expressions is a high-level visual construct usually graphs of control or data flow abi: prograph? water: wish i knew * water/#tunes sighs * Fufie/#tunes hopes it's not like those stupid control-flow things people say is good when learning to program drawing boxes with expressions on no, more like fp well, that's how prograph works, anyway ok, I might be old-fashioned but I prefer oo-fp and a good call-graph interface abi: prograph is a visual data-flow language with oo extensions at http://www.pictorius.com/prograph.html lol anyway, there's a decent amount of research into vpl constructs as well as program visualization and that's what shows up at the conferences ok, program visualisation is important yes and direct manipulation ui's to languages help, too or maybe you think the self stuff is nonsense :) but it should be an option, not something some loser-professor or theorist impose in a language heh well all vpl's right now besides prograph and toontalk are just tiny research projects 01:40pm until they bootstrap themselves they remain toy languages yep thx for reminding me, oh wise one no need for sarcasm no need for patronizing I didn't you never do ;) whatever.. -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us145.javanet.com]) the point is that you can make direct-manipulation ui's to languages and that some language ideas even foster this metaphor like self (and slate, i'm betting) of course, the field is small because it's difficult to capture program semantics visually except within high-level languages that don't have enough support to go visual basically, most coders don't care about the end-user's perspective I think I disagree on that, but I'll let that rest every coder disagrees with that even i do, and i know i'm wrong hm so what do you think? think about which part? about any part you have thoughts about 01:50pm do the ms visual languages have anything to do with vpl's? hell no ok you have to be able to build, manipulate, and compile an algorithm from an interface whose syntax is not ascii-based I think the most important measurement is LOCNW: lines of code not written :) how do you mean? the fact that no one uses it or expressive power? expressive power oh ok water: what input devices are used for vpl's? smoke: the usual gui stuff although some research ideas go well beyond wimps if visual interaction can help increas LOCNW that is very good, as long as it doesn't force one into some losers idea fufie: well then argue against implementations of the idea, not the idea "i think coding with text sucks because basic is coded in ascii and it suck" I dislike enforcement of _one_ idea thx for the irrelevant opinion stop whining -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn108.delft.casema.net]) well, discuss ideas i don't care about politics i don't disagree with you at all, i just don't care * Fufie/#tunes goes back to his emacs.. I don't have time to listen to attempts to insult me what an ass * lar1/#tunes takes notes lar1: on what? How you and fufie handled eachother oh any suggestions? On what? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1041.javanet.com] has joined #tunes on how to handle each other Not at the moment intresting that you ask me though 02:00pm I thought you didn't take advice from the 14-year-old? well any kid knows how to get along with people lar1 isnt any kid it takes an adult to be a consummate jerk :) no, but he could have been 8 and i still would have asked him water: Heh. You forget that if I was that devloped with my social skills, I wouldn't be here. err yes, i suppose that's true That one was wide open to misinterpeation np Igh The crap under this keyboard is disgusting hm squeak's namespaces are dictionaries, which is compatible with my set-type objects used as namespaces 02:10pm -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn175.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1041.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1041.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hm smalltalk namespaces use inheritance for nesting namespaces 02:20pm ok slate's not terribly far from self or smalltalk in some respects although the namespace idea hasn't been used in smalltalk before hcf: what should i do about fufie? reading log, was afk -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial137.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes stop talking to him heh about things that result in things that piss u off Yet more proof that Slashdot has a negative IQ average. am i hopeless or is he? :) water: both heh :P Kaufmann: start #slashdot-rejects and whine in there hcf, I should Some guy stumbles upon a page saying the music industry enjoyed solid growth in the past year. He posts it to Slashdot, saying they lost negative $1.4M last year. And, just as expected, a bunch of braindead morons start saying "oh, the RIAA should do this and that to start losing money", completely missing the point. urrrrrrrgh idiots I don't know how the system can give this kind of people valuable mod points and let them use them it's like handing a loaded gun to a monkey Kaufmann: the subtext of what i said was take it elsewhere iow, shutup hcf, I noticed it I don't wanna 02:30pm and promptly spewed more crap okay, I'll shut up uh? * hcf/#tunes is lag'd ah -:- Kaufmann is now known as Kaufmann_away hm so apparently i shouldn't discuss anything related to ideas about new ideas in prograamming languages doh hm so apparently i shouldn't discuss anything related to new ideas in programming languages is that what you're saying? 02:40pm hcf: you gonna answer or no? :) to what? my pervious question eh why'd u ask? to get more precise data on how to make #tunes work better -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) i dont know ppl suck thats exactly right ppl rnt on ur level lol yeah sure cannot partake is discussions like u'd like 02:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || WebMind @ http://www.intelligenesis.net/ -:- Kaufmann_away is now known as Kaufmann well, I'm back so you'll have to stop talking about important stuff now :) 03:20pm * Fufie/#tunes yawns * Kaufmann/#tunes yawns back * Fufie/#tunes has a function that disappears just vanishes cool (define (fun) (set! fun #f)) :)\ even worse it shows up in a datafile but when reading that datafile it even disappears as data 03:30pm how odd it's called parse-javadoc-text that is probably the reason heh built-in hatred in cmucl of java :) ah well it's been a long time since I restarted the image.. time to start afresh I guess hmm isn't that peculiar? in that respect, today's CMUCL is just like the Symbolics Lisp Machines of 20 years ago you mean images? kinda the way the environment behaves a lot of smalltalks use images, with the exceptions being gnu st and a few commercial ones how is that? I know how is what? the way the env behaves well, I'm just saying that 20 years ago, if you wanted to clean up the bindings, you would power-cycle the LispM.