IRC log started Fri Feb 18 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0218
12:10am
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<Fufie> (yawn)
03:20am
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<Fare> Gakuk
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05:20am
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<Fare> Gakuk
05:50am
<hcf> sup?
<Fare> inf
<hcf> inf?
<Fare> what did smoke reproach to WhyNewOS?
<hcf> u read the logs?
06:00am
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<AlonzoTG> seen downix?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at abi
<AlonzoTG> abi: seen downix?
<abi> downix was last seen on IRC 10 days, 8 hours, 26 seconds ago, saying: hehe [Mon Feb  7 23:11:48 2000]
07:20am
<smoke> fare: you there?
<hcf> smoke: beep him
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<Fare> bop
07:40am
<freud1> bop
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<Fare> beep repeatedly to mqke me understqnd where it comes from
<smoke> fare: oh damn now I was gone sorry
<smoke> fare: did you read what i wrote about WhyNewOS yesterday?
<Fare> now I qm gone
<Fare> zhen can we synchronize?
<Fare> darn. qwerty keyboard
<smoke> you were used to awerzy?
<Fare> azerty
<smoke> jk
<Fare> smoke: yes I read it
<Fare> but I think your misled, perhaps because my draft ain't clear enough
<smoke> fare: very well possible
<Fare> the point about security isn't about the system enforcing any particular concrete security
<smoke> fare: my main point concerned your definition of utility
<Fare> it's about the system enforcing abstract rules that enable users to negociate enforceable security with each other
<Fare> it's really like gorvernment in a classical liberal state: not meant to enforce any concrete order of society, but to enforce the respect of freely negociated contracts between individuals
<smoke> hm what i said about security wasn't very well formulated and not very important
<Fare> smoke: I didn't read that part of your comments
<Fare> what about utility?
<smoke> fare: what i made up from the document is that you use (the need for (more)) `utility' as a basis for tunes; is that right?
<smoke> or is there another (or even completely different) basis?
07:50am
<Fare> not as a basis; as a guiding principle
<Fare> the basis is a reflective system design
<smoke> hm principle i mean
<smoke> i had my doubts if it's a good guide/prinicple/basis to look at utility
<smoke> not that i'm advocating the opposite for tunes, it's just for my personal understanding of tunes
08:00am
<smoke> hm i'll read more on utilitarism first
08:10am
<Fare> well, just any human achievement must be compatible with utility
<Fare> and understanding of how general principles apply to a case at hand can but help
<Fare> (although of course, general principle can't explain *everything* about particular instances)
08:20am
<smoke> hm but then utility is a very vague concept and cannot lead you
<smoke> oh well, as i said yesterday it's probably nothing important
<smoke> i myself would've used `individual fun' as a guiding principle probably
<smoke> fare: are you a fan of hedonistic/classical utilitarianism ?
<smoke> after reading briefly through glossaries i have to conclude that i'm not a fan of it :)
08:30am
<Fare> individual fun is comprised in utility
<Fare> it's a basic component
<smoke> no no
<smoke> individual fun gives the individual the freedom to choose his/her personal type of fun
<smoke> some people really dislike the fun of others and vice versa
<smoke> if i understand utilitarianism _already_, it does not address that aspect
<smoke> (i probably don't though ;-)
<Fare> of course it does address this aspect
<smoke> www.utilitarianism.com links to a couple of more then ridiculous texts btw
<Fare> shameless self quote: "In its weak form, Utilitarianism sums up as a requirementIn its weak form, Utilitarianism sums up as a requirement of observational consistency of ethical rules."
08:40am
<Fare> smoke: never looked it out
<Fare> beware of various schools of utilitarianism
<smoke> which one do you like most then?
<Fare> constructivist utilitarianism a la Bentham is doomed, indeed
<Fare> but what dooms it is its constructivism
<Fare> (see what F.A. Hayek writes about constructivism)
<AlonzoTG> my fucking snail merver is being jerry this morning. =((((
<Fare> I like mine, of course
<Fare> kind of acknowledge tradition from JSMill and Pareto
<Fare> but with definite improvements due to better understanding of the roles of tradition, liberty, etc, in the emergence of stable systems.
<Fare> again, a great text about cybernethics is Hayek's "Law, Legislation and Liberty"
<Fare> but the fscking publisher won't let me republish it online
<smoke> i should read about cybernethics more
<smoke> what is a good introductory text?
<smoke> (book is fine too, our univ's library probably has some)
08:50am
<Fare> no good introductory text.
<Fare> a few hints in my very drafty http://fare.tunes.org/articles/cybernethics.html
<smoke> thanks!
<smoke> hm, have to eat something. good bye
<Fare> see the bibliography in the end
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
09:00am
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<smoke> Of course, we've learnt a lot from the many mistakes of others (curiously, we learn too little from our
<smoke> own mistakes) during our lifetime
<smoke> hypothesis: there are more other people than there are yourselves.
09:20am
<Fare> hehe
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09:30am
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<bineng> smkl: what's the matter with your terminal?
<smkl> X crashed
<bineng> does that happen often? what're you running?
<smkl> netscape ... it started crashing month ago ... now crashed 3 times
<bineng> ic
09:40am
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<hcf> hi water
<water> hi
<water> i put up a decent number of changes to the web docs
<hcf> i saw
<water> i'm not sure if i know the interest level at all of people on the slate mlist
<hcf> ask 'em
<water> heh. but will they answer? i asked a similar question some time ago
10:20am
<hcf> they probly wont answer
<hcf> which will be the expected answer
<Fare> gakuk, water!
<water> hi fare
<water> damn dmoz still hasn't added maude anywhere after i put in a suggestion
<water> so what's up fare?
<Fare> not my morale
<Fare> I'm trying to write an architecture document for TUNES and/or PHENIX
<water> k
<Fare> but currently, I'm worried about some aspects of my stuff
<water> have you looked at slate docs recently?
<water> which aspects?
<Fare> maybe I should get a rendez-vous w/ Ian & al next week or so
<Fare> water: I fear I haven't
<water> np
* Fare/#Tunes is experiencing lots of hardware problems at home, and account configuration problems at work, these times
<water> i'm probably going to call on the uwash cs dept soon
<water> ouch
10:30am
<water> so what aspects are giving you problems?
<Fare> at home: I fried my desktop's motherboard, and broke my laptop's external power converter's plug
<Fare> at work: the many servers are configured incoherently, and their configuration changing in incoherent ways, yet I have a one home tree (with $HOME varying between hosts, btw)
<Fare> so the same .profile (or .login, depending on what's my login shell on the machine) must "do the right thing"
<water> hm
<Fare> fun? no
<water> i avoid such complexity like the plague
<Fare> I've lived with it for years.
<water> then i pity you
<Fare> I have an elaborate system of autodetection
<Fare> but it's not declarative enough
<Fare> I should start metaprogramming it, some day ;-)
<water> anyway
<Fare> hell, no. Slowaris installations are just TOO messy
<water> um
* Fare/#Tunes would nuke Sun, if allowed to
<water> dude. i don't care
<water> *tunes*
<Fare> lucky you
<Fare> :)
<Fare> ok. so.
10:40am
* Fare/#Tunes is meant to write a pattern matcher in scheme
<Fare> to extend Ian's reflective scheme
<Fare> and migrate for statically-dynamic ccg to something dynamically dynamic
<Fare> s/for/from/
<water> btw, i have made a type of namespace an integral part of the slate syntax
<Fare> have you?
<Fare> slate-home.html ?
<water> check out the semantics page for the real details
<water> i haven't propagated the changes to all the pages yet
<water> anywa, objects in slate act as namespaces
<water> for now we have a hierarchy where an object receives multiple presences via cloning
<water> unfortunately, the means we have now for namespaces seems to forbid divorcing the notion from syntax, but that may not be so limiting
<Fare> m,ultiple presences?
<water> copying
<water> as in having the same object in many different namespaces, but not all of them
<Fare> was that difficult?
<water> sorry, the terms for slate haven't become concrete
<water> not really, we just had to come up with the idea by discussion
<water> we started with considering each object as a namespace, and considered the consequences on the overall system
<water> as it is, i think modules would be very simple to implement as objects :)
10:50am
<Fare> have you seen the mzscheme module system?
<water> no although i looked at drscheme's syntax "levels"
<water> why does it have interesting ideas?
<Fare> afaik, it is very elaborate, yet based on explicit metaprogramming, from a few simple primitives
<water> hm
<water> well so are maude's modules :)
<Fare> sure
<water> well, eihrul noticed that objects-as-threads in slate would act usefully as namespaces
11:00am
<water> using the clong-across-namespaces idea to share values
<water> btw, the functional postscript seems unavailable lately. it's at Rice's PLT, right?
<hcf> water: ftp://ftp-swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/su/scsh/contrib/fps/
<hcf> other links so far r 404s
<water> ok
<water> yeah it seems a shame to let fps just disappear
11:10am
<water> foo
<hcf> water: icuc, http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/116444
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<water> care to repeat that url, hcf?
<hcf> http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/116444
<water> thx
<water> hm
<water> interesting
<hcf> good :)
<water> grrr
<water> "authentification req'd"
<hcf> :(
<water> ok n/m
<water> no there are other copies
<hcf> s/(/)/  ;)
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<hcf> want a guile version of fps?
<water> hm sure
<hcf> no garantees, somebody ported it, but the link was dead, following up...
<water> damn the filename was all screwed up, now i must unscrew
<water> woo hoo! we have a paper
<water> i'll have to delete the crappy copy from within beos
11:30am
<water> fare: still here?
<water> it figures
<hcf> beep him
<water> only linux clients can do that, i thought
11:40am
<hcf> i beeped him, no response :(
<water> like i said :)
<water> it's nice how prototype-based programming inherits everything available in class-based oo, particularly the research
11:50am
<thomas> hi, anybody written a 'quine'?
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<water> not i
<water> abi quines?
<abi> water: i don't know
<water> abi quine?
<abi> quine is probably at http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm
<thomas> abi: a quine is a program that outputs its entire source code
<abi> ...but quine is at http://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm...
<hcf> thomas: use 'is also'
<thomas> ok
<thomas> quine is also a program that outputs its entire source code
<water> she got it
<thomas> I've just ported a phyton quine to tml !
<thomas> It works, but I'm still trying to figure out why :|
<water> heh
<hcf> heh
<thomas> here is the phyton quine:
<thomas> x = 'x=%s\012print x%`x`'
<thomas> print x%`x`
<water> ack not here
12:00pm
<thomas> here's the tml version ( not fully trimmed ) :
<thomas> [ x < <[ x > { a } <]> <( <[ a > { x } <]> )> <( x )> >]( <[ a > { x } <]> )( x )
<water> have you ever considered replacing a lot of your language with identifiers?
<water> maybe using a macro-style system to pre-process?
<water> tom?
<hcf> friggin ppl
<thomas> water, tml is a macrostyle system - it creates identifiers - I consider it a lucky situation that i don't need them initially
<water> heh. i see a lot of replies to the /. article on open-source research that address tunes
<water> so why not provide and use them to make tml readible?
12:10pm
<thomas> why? do you not consider it readable enough?
<water> lol
<thomas> :)
<water> yeah it's as readible as false
<thomas> well, that quine is a particularly tricky thing - I don't really understand it myself just yet
<water> i don't doubt it ;)
<water> even if you can read it, i doubt tml code semantics are all that clear
<water> it's common to all tiny combinator languages
<thomas> do you know what the "combinators" do?
<water> roughly yes, they act as push/pop operators for i/o and functions
<water> and also quoting
<water> but tracing it sucks
<thomas> if it was forth, that would be exactly right - for tml there are simpler ways to comprehend them
<water> heh. not simple enough for you to explain your quine even to yourself, though :)
<thomas> that's because I don't fully understand the concept of quine - I managed to write it in ONE go!
<water> heh
<water> there's not much of an over-riding concept - it's merely what gets the quine done in the language of choice
<thomas> well, I consider tml a perfect mode - understanding how a quine is done in tml will give me a concrete view of this non-existant concept of quines.
<thomas> ( mode = model )
<water> if you think so, ok
12:20pm
<water> but i'd think you'd have more people interested in tml if you gave it a really useful set of macros
<thomas> well, as the knights of the round table so wisely once said: It's just a mode !
<water> a lot of them
<thomas> ( model again !)
<water> heh
<water> hm i would love to have a company that was devoted to open research... even *fun* research
<thomas> i'm in - how about creating computer games
<water> heh
<water> hm perhaps even a free summer lab
<water> yes i already have computer "game" ideas
<thomas> we could make a new breed of visually pleasing AND playable games
<water> using the word game loosely
<water> no kidding
<water> but that requires tunes/arrow
<water> so let's fscking build it!
<thomas> have you looked at 'hip-bone' site?'
<water> should i?!?
<thomas> i don't know what a word game is , but the hoipbone people are pretty close
<water> i don't care
<thomas> home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
<thomas> you'll like!
<water> ahem
<water> NO
<thomas> why?
12:30pm
<water> if i can't use it for tunes or arrow or slate or <>, i don't care
<thomas> YOU CAN!
<water> and i already know much about language games and theory
<thomas> sure you do
<hcf> water: heres guile-fps, ftp.red-bean.com/pub/guile/contrib/hacks/guile-fps-961222.tar.gz
<water> thx
<thomas> hipbone games are graphs consisting of words as nodes and the asosiations between them are edges
<water> abi forget hipbone games
<abi> water: I forgot hipbone games
<water> word-associations can go screw themselves
<thomas> why?
<water> abi <>
<abi> <> is Modality or a diamond symbol or your Arrow-like human language idea
<thomas> what?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-215.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<thomas> gee
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<water> ftp addresses kill my irc client if they time out
<hcf> abi: <> is also additional blurb at http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<abi> okay, hcf.
<water> yeah i gotta finish up web docs on it
<thomas> screw webdocs :D
<water> screw you
* thomas/#tunes and your mother
<thomas> :D
<hcf> abi: insult thomas
<abi> thomas is nothing but a tastless thimbleful of left-over fish heads.
<water> tom: are you going to say anything useful today?
<thomas> how the hell did she know? Damn, now i'll have to return to my planet
<thomas> water, do I ever?
<water> hm
<water> well tml could be useful if you could actually explain how it's different *overall* from other languages, particularly combinator ones
<thomas> I could try, but you'd probably just tell me where to read about combinators
12:40pm
<water> exactly :)
<thomas> exactly :
<thomas> and that would get YOU where, exactly ?
<water> farther than otherwise... i wouldn't have to listen to your failed attempt
<water> my time happens to be tunes/arrow time.
<thomas> ok, and I have a different ultimat goal then you guys?
<thomas> which makes me --- of topic, right
<water> it seems so.. i've never heard you come up with hll stuff
<water> can you help with slate at all?
<thomas> I tried to say some thing about "things" once, but i guess that is not considered high level enough
<water> what are "things"?
<thomas> things, I guess
<water> geee that helps
<thomas> what the hell do YOU think things are?
<water> sigh
<water> i don't care about things, i care about representations
<water> elements of formal (and informal) models
<thomas> so, you care about representing things
<water> yeah i think that's what computers are all about ;)
<water> abi agt
<abi> hmmm... agt is Around Goedel's Theorem at http://www.ltn.lv/~podnieks/
<water> read that for notions of "things"
<thomas> (this is usually the time when i think you are following me - but it never happens  )
<thomas> ( instead i get a "you should read so and so" request )
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<water> yeah because i follow you and know where your ideas are
<water> and i know better
<thomas> so, WHY THE FUCK AM I OFF TOPIC then ?
<thomas> because YOU know better ?
<water> because you don't grok
<thomas> ok
12:50pm
<water> not grokking tunes is reason enough to avoid pretending that you add to tunes
<thomas> so, there is a theory about things - I am TOO STUPID to comprehend it - but despite all that I realize the importance of such a theory/understanding.
<water> it took me years to really grok what tunes is and what tunes isn't, man
<thomas> Or are you just complaing that I use the word 'thing' incorrectly?
<water> no, there is NO THEORY of things
<water> that's the point
<thomas> what was you refering me to, then?
<thomas> where did you come up with that reference?
<water> a way around that :)
<thomas> why are you pointing me to complicated stuff, when i'm obiously on the BASIC tutorial level compared to you
<water> well, you're on #tunes, aren't you?
<water> i assume you want to learn about tunes
<thomas> so, you don't get it and want to talk about something else? ver scientific, you MUST be very interested in formal theory and problems - gee
<water> ok explain tunes to me so i know you grok or leave, please
<thomas> KNOWBODY, have a fully explanation of tunes - not even Fare. He, on the other hand is reflected enough to recognize that fact
<water> lol
<water> so explain what the lll is... do we have to write lll before hll?
<thomas> well, you explain it - so I can get better in TUNES next time :)
<water> rtfm dude
<thomas> water, read about absorbtion
<water> read the damned tunes pages until you're sick of them, then go back and read them again like i did
<thomas> water, read about bootstrapping
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<water> and when you think you've finally grokked tunes, stop and go back and read the damned tunes site 5 times over
<thomas> I had my idea prior to reading about tunes. I read about tunes, and the way I saw it then, and still do, TUNES represented the same ideals and motivations that iI had.
01:00pm
<water> lol
<water> and there's the problem
<water> fusion of concepts
<water> it's tunes' disease
<thomas> wow you really have it all figured out
<water> well i can converse with fare without submitting to his every idea
<water> i've even taught him a few things
<thomas> add it to your resyme
<water> and i know for a fact that my idea, arrow, is definitely not tunes
<_ruiner_> no, arrow is still alive
<thomas> why, what's wrong with arrows. ( besides their inability to express contexts ) ?
<water> well, i've wasted enough of my time. hcf, email me when the noise is down
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<_ruiner_> what a whiner
<thomas> right!
<thomas> Water, though initially that arrows "were" tunes.
<thomas> I tried to explain to him certain problems that i saw with the arrow idea.
<_ruiner_> heh
<thomas> He tried to implement it in squeek - and realized eventually that it was no as good as he thought - and he redefined his goals .
<_ruiner_> waste of breath....err...keystrokes
<thomas> He'll read
01:10pm
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* water/#tunes sifts through the research index for slate material
<thomas> Here's a quine which I think is quite optimal ( in tml anyway ). 23 bytes.
<thomas> [x<<[x>{ x }<](x)>>](x)
<thomas> a productive day at work :) bye !
<water> nice quine
<hcf> water: http://www.smop.com/darius/fps-tutorial-errata.text
<water> hm ok
<water> hm jesus christ has a home page :)
<hcf> oh?
<water> yeah on aol
01:40pm
<water> hm someone made a real macro system in c++
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<water> hi, mov
<m-ov> hi
<water> you familiar with tunes?
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
01:50pm
<m-ov> i have visited www.tunes.org and read some of the papers there
<water> ok
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<water> unfortunately we don't have much code to show you
<water> but we can show that the ideas work
<m-ov> how? show me 
<water> well which ideas are you interested in?
<water> we have a few prototypes of the hll
<m-ov> what was that? the high-level-language? (i browse tunes a month ago)
<water> yes
<m-ov> ok ill enjoy seeing this prototype
<water> although fare seems to think that rscheme will work well enough
<m-ov> i know (or at least i think i know) what scheme is but i dont know what rscheme is and im not a lisper too
<water> well i have a few K of lisp code which demonstrates my slate idea for hll
<water> yeah most of our code is in lisp
<water> some is in c though
<m-ov> well, what are your ideas about hll in plain english :) ?
<water> hm maybe tril's prototype code
<water> abi tril?
<abi> tril is, like, logged into bespin or trying to make a non-reflective design first
<water> bah
<water> http://www.tunes.org/~dem/old/tunes/
<m-ov> hm i just cant figure out what the bot just said 
<water> there's some ideas and code there for tunes
<water> the bot spat out noise
<water> abi forget tril
<abi> water: I forgot tril
<water> yeah tril's stuff happens to be the best for newbies
<water> maybe the slate docs can compete, but i don't know
02:00pm
<m-ov> i know youll think its a shame but i dont have a lisp compiler on my machine; im interested in prolog/logic programming mainly; 
<water> it's ok
<m-ov> is there a small lisp around 
<water> hm
<water> have you heard of maude?
<water> yes there are a few good free lisps
<m-ov> yes i think i visited the site once (maude)
<water> it's really powerful
<m-ov> but the texts seemd too complex and theoretical for me
<water> really? did you try the implementation/manual?
<water> i happen to like maude because it can handle all sorts of search strategies that basically eliminate the need for separate functional programming
<m-ov> what is separate functional programming?
<water> oh the usual stuff like scheme or lisp or ml
<m-ov> now i remember i found the maude site while searching for "rewrite logic"
<water> yeah equational logic
<water> equations allow you to get the functional programming for free
<m-ov> well, its a kind of stupid addiction that i have to search for methods to incorporate some clear representation of state and change in 'declarative' languages
<water> heh
<m-ov> i have seen mercury, actor prolog and oz (the last thaks to you)
<water> well, if you count functional programming as declarative (which it is) monads help with state
<m-ov> i dont count functional programming for declarative; i read something for monads;
<m-ov> i think there is something like monads in the logical lang. mercury
<m-ov> but its not convenient to use
<water> ok
<water> no, monads are notoriously weird as for syntax
<m-ov> yes its not modular to carry all those variables in every clause
<water> yep
<m-ov> actor prolog seems more promising (for me, since im not good at theory and math)
<water> eewww :)
<water> just kidding
<smkl> actor prolog is concurrent oo prolog?
02:10pm
<m-ov> the problem is that mr. morozov doesnt have a compiler and there is only a specification for the language
<m-ov> tha doesnt make things clear enough
<m-ov> www.cplire.ru/Lab144/index.html (in russian, sorry)
<water> actually maude handles state
<water> it's in the manual, too
<m-ov> ok, im gonna download the manual, then
<water> yeah they have these "object-oriented modules"
<water> with message-passing as rewriting, of course
<m-ov> well, its not only state, its io too (that i do consider something different)
<water> yeah it handles it
<m-ov> since i think transact logic also handles state.change in some way but has nothing to do with io
<water> although i don't know what expressive limits rewrite has yet
<water> i definitely know of prolog's limits, though ;)
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<m-ov> what are they (sure they exist im curious whats your oppinion)
<water> for one it has a limited search space
<m-ov> what do you mean?
<water> there are certain horn clauses which *do* derive from initial premises which its strategies will never reach
<water> and then there's the fact that i find horn clauses limiting to begin with
<m-ov> im not sure i understand but you mean sld resolution is incomplete?
<water> i mean i'd rather have something that doesn't *depend* on horn-clause primitives
<water> yes
02:20pm
<m-ov> i dont think the incompletness of this resolution is a serious obstacle; after all you do not prove theorems in the language but program in it
<water> i know
<water> but it really bothers me too much to use it
<m-ov> why? i think prolog has somewhat different problems
<water> like what?
<m-ov> you loose the power of unification and reverse predicates when trying to solve nontrivial problems in it
<water> ok
<water> i hadn't thought of that, but i see that it's definitely true
<water> i guess i'm used to maude's features ;)
<m-ov> hm thats the oppinion of paul tarau too
<water> who's he?
<m-ov> (about the defects of prolog)
<m-ov> he is the creator of binprolog - one of the fastest prolog compilers around
<water> oh
<m-ov> http://www.binnetcorp.com/ - its almost commercial
<water> oh
02:30pm
<water> no thanks :)
<m-ov> why? rejected so quickly?
<water> um "prolog"
<water> enough said for me
<water> and i already have a prolog environment within squeak
<m-ov> well, i dont know what squeak is but guessing by your lisp addiction i suppose its a lisp environment that emulates sld resolution search
<m-ov> or im wrong? :)
<water> nope
<water> abi squeak
<abi> squeak is, like, a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars
<water> actually, it *is* smalltalk
<m-ov> i wonder how they combine oop and logic since  oop requires *the* notion of state and assignment - otherwise its useless, i think
<water> they who?
<m-ov> the squeak people :) you said squeak is smalltalk descendant
<water> oh you mis-understand
<water> there's a prolog compiler written for squeak that compiles to byte-codes
<water> as well as one for lisp
<m-ov> you mean prolog written *in* squeak (i dont know what is to write a compiler _for_ language)
<water> it's an application
<water> yes, written using smalltalk
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<water> hm. hello, guo
<m-ov> well, i dont really understand how the marvelous fact that the prolog compiler is written in squeak solves prolog's problems
<water> it doesn't
<water> it's a toy for understanding how to do logic programming in smalltalk
<water> the source code is worth more than the product
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<water> wb
02:40pm
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<water> what was the last thing you read?
<m-ov> me? 
<water> yes you
<m-ov> that prolog is written in squeak
<water> well i said:
<water> the source code is worth more than the product
<water> it's a toy for understanding how to do logic programming in smalltalk
<m-ov> hm and my question was how is that possible to (easy) do logic programming in oop language with state and change
<water> heh
<water> well, you can model the state of the evaluator for one
<water> you can also make objects that behave like predicates
<m-ov> you can model it on a turing machine too
<water> heh
<m-ov> i do consider syntax sugar important
<water> it's important for ui
<water> but that's the only thing it's good for
<m-ov> not only
<water> lol
<water> yeah whatever
<water> you've never used lisp macros, i bet
<m-ov> no - you are right; i dislike lisp for its unnatural s-expressions syntax
<water> macros aren't about s-expressions though
<water> all you need are abstract syntax trees
<m-ov> well, if i get the point - you say that its possible to model a language syntax fairly easy in lisp
<water> not just model it, use it
<m-ov> ?
<water> if you have macros and a semantic extension to the lisp evaluator, you can easily use another language within lisp
<m-ov> prolog also has fairly unrestricted parser but i do consider it a defect not advantage, because
<m-ov> this leads to syntax errors whose place is hard to detect
02:50pm
<m-ov> and error messages that say nothing about the actual error
<smkl> heh you haven't seen maude
<m-ov> maybe
<water> smkl: :)
<smkl> maude has very flexible misfix syntax
<m-ov> misfix?
<smkl> mixfix
<m-ov> what does misfix mean?
<water> it means you can define syntactic sugar for your terms in maude
<smkl> you could like have "if _ then _ else _" defined just like that ... or redefine white space
<water> and maude's macro system transforms it transparently into a normal syntax form
<m-ov> but this imposes another problem known from the c macros - (sorry that i mention it here :) )
<smkl> camlp4 syntax extension system gives pretty good error messages ... a lot better than the builtin parser for ocaml
<water> not c macros at all
<m-ov> i mean that to understand a program written in such a free-syntax language you have to know what all that syntax sugar mean
<water> well the syntax sugar is for making it *more* readible
<water> and you read the code if you really want to know
<m-ov> not when everyone is allowed to define its own syntax sugar 
<water> oh geez
<water> you can turn it off, too
* water/#tunes resorts to the final word
<water> RTFM
<water> argue with it, not us
<m-ov> ?
<smkl> i don't think maude's mixfix syntax makes programs unreadable ... it's not that much more than operator overloading or function definition
<m-ov> ok ill download the maude manual and compiler (if there's any) - by the way - abi is quite helful explaining such basic thinks like rtfm :)
03:00pm
<smkl> and for syntactic sugar, you should always have the AST that can be converted to desired form
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<smkl> maude only has an interpreter .. i think it would be very hard to compile it all efficiently
<water> it might be possible... though slow
<m-ov> :) if maude is at experimental state - it doesnt matter; the problem is that many languages never survive this stage when faced with the real world
<water> lol
<water> yeah like prolog? ;)
<m-ov> prolog is a typical example 
<m-ov> by i like it , though
<m-ov> but
<water> anyway, it's not maude i like, but rewrite
<m-ov> i dont know what rewrite logic is, i must read the papers and the manual
03:10pm
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<water> hey eih
<hcf> abi: tell m-ov about rewriting
<m-ov> hcf, thanx
<eihrul> rmm, hey
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<hcf> ok, wheres the discussion?
03:20pm
<water> hm? i was reading
<hcf> oh, n/m then
<water> eihrul: checked out site updates?
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* water/#tunes wonders if eihrul will *ever* use afk messages consistently
<eihrul> heh, i was reading them...
<water> k
* eihrul/#tunes ponders...
<eihrul> (removeSlot "slotName")    >:)
<water> what about it?
<eihrul> well, it uses strings... namely
<water> hm actually using a string seeems bad yes
<water> ok it'll be a symbol
<eihrul> also, the ':' operator... that kind of hit me out of the blue :)
<water> yeah well you got an alternative?
<eihrul> to utilize an over-abused metaphor...
<water> and i *did* tell you
<water> 2 nights in a row, in fact
<eihrul> well, you did... we just didn't have a big argument over it yet :)
<water> lol
<water> ok i can see why you wouldn't remember it very well ;)
<eihrul> 'special' syntactic operators should be kept to a minimum
<water> i know
<eihrul> because they're not quite as easy to just extend/replace/etc as a meta-object...
03:30pm
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<water> true
<water> but how else to do it?
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* eihrul/#tunes ponders...
<water> and we still have / ( and ) :)
<water> which are now our canonical namespace operators
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<water> hello mordac
<mordac> hi
<mordac> how is tunes development coming along?
<water> well, we're working on a hll spec/implementation right now
<water> as "slate"
<mordac> gotcha
<eihrul> well, if slot assignment were a primitively defined operation in Top or a descendent, it'd do about the same thing as the : operator...
<water> what about the infinite recursion i noted would be required?
<eihrul> that's why it's a primitive... :)
<eihrul> either way they both represent black-boxes that show some kind of frailty of the language :)
<water> i don't know about frailty per se
<water> but state has never been a simple topic
<eihrul> it'd be nice if the language were expressive enough to accomplish it without black-boxen...
<water> is it, though?
<water> maybe concurrency can handle it
<water> we haven't really explored that route
* eihrul/#tunes tries to fathom the relations between concurrency and assignment.
<water> you looked at monads, right?
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<smkl> concurrent languages like erlang or join-calculus handle state using concurrency
03:40pm
<water> well you could look at the stream of values produced as though in parallel with the computation
<mordac> this is way beyond me...
<mordac> see ya
<water> smkl: think you could do the same in oo?
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* eihrul/#tunes ponders.
<smkl> concurrent oo?
<water> yes
<water> hopefully with an understandable model/syntax
<water> hm tunes-devel definitely seems to attract the opposite people as tunes the idea
<eihrul> so the state is where the stream of values and computation intersect? or am i way off? :)
<water> hm sure metaphorically
<smkl> probably, but with concurrency you'll have non-determinism and all
<water> abi part #tunes
<eihrul> any papers on the subject?
<water> on monads?
<eihrul> rmm, no :)
<eihrul> if you're talking about normal monads, then i already grok...
<water> well normal monads don't seem to be quite enough
<eihrul> well, yes, but where are you differing from normal monads? :)
<water> i'm not sure
<smkl> concurrency is a more general concept than for example ref cells for state though
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<smkl> see the papers "what the hell are monads" and "what the fuck are comonads"
<water> but is it a problem?
<smkl> j/k
<water> comonads?
<abi> comonads are at http://www.cse.ogi.edu/~dick/dick.html
<smkl> water: no, that's the advantage
<water> well i mean for expressing accessor messages to objects
<eihrul> comonads were kind of odd...
<water> hm
03:50pm
* water/#tunes reads on comonads
<water> interesting
<water> hm "an IO subsystem is not initialized by a Haskell program"
<water> smkl: anything you can add to explain comonads?
<smkl> water: nope. never really looked into them
<water> it's amazing how un-assuming such ideas appear
<water> why the hell didn't anyone mention this to me before?
<water> (considering i use the word co-inductive so often)
04:00pm
<water> "other examples of codata in programming languages are the 'objects' of languages such as Java, Smalltalk, Eiffel, and C++."
* water/#tunes bonks eihrul for looking at this and not noticing this glaring statement
<eihrul> well, the thought had crossed my mind :)
<eihrul> but i'd assumed you probably already knew about anything involving co- :)
<smkl> and we thought you would read all the logs anyway
<water> yeah well i've been swamped with keeping up with squeak email
<water> and i can't possibly notice every little concept discussed
<eihrul> well, it was a long time ago...
<water> oh
<eihrul> may have been weeks ago
<water> well, it's time for both of us to face the Big Clue Stick and ask for it :)
<water> hint, hint
<eihrul> eh?
<water> there has to be something in this paper we can use
<water> damn it, if i had my pda still, i could take it with me
<water> i lost the damned thing on the bus on sunday
<eihrul> you lost it!?
<water> yeah
<water> afaik
<eihrul> damn, that's pretty tragic...
<water> i may have left it in my room, but i haven't seen it
<water> well it takes at least a month between order time and delivery
<water> the cost isn't the problem
<eihrul> aren't they rather expensive?
<eihrul> ~$400?
<water> yep
04:10pm
<water> my time is worth that much to me
<water> easily
<eihrul> limited appropriately by income...
<water> well i spend my income appropriately
<water> that's why i hav 25$K
<water> lord knows my parents don't have that much
<eihrul> so, any possible applications of comonads to slate?
<water> yes, but i can't say how just yet
<water> just concentrate on figuring out how to make the existing syntax and semantic model working
<water> i'm pretty sure i can use comonad ideas without disrupting it too much
<water> note that haskell requires the "do" syntax for monads
<water> even it breaks
<eihrul> it doesn't require
<eihrul> so much as it makes monads less unwieldly...
<water> well sure
<eihrul> it's just a sugaring
<eihrul> though too much sugar is not necessarily good :)
<water> but without it, monads are fairly unusable
<eihrul> because afaik, haskell sugar is only of one brand...
04:20pm
<water> comonads don't seem to be any worse than monads
<water> ok well i'm going to shower and ponder comonads
<water> bbiaf
04:30pm
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<water> wow you guys had nothing to talk about?
<eihrul> not particularly
<water> well, no insights were derived from the shower, though of course i feel better
<hcf> water: icuc, http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/wadler/topics/monads.html
<water> yeah thanks
<water> although i've seen it before, maybe the papers i haven't read could help
04:50pm
<water> wow a good decss set of comments on /.
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<water> eihrul: so any thoughts on the implementation / possible problems?
05:00pm
* eihrul/#tunes hmmses.
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<water> is that a "no"?
<iStormy> hilo
<water> hey storm
<eihrul> i know there's some there...
<eihrul> just have yet to identify them
<water> ok
<eihrul> well, what about quoting? :)
<water> what about it?
<water> do we need it?
<eihrul> how else do you specify to put some code in a slot?
<water> hm my news server is down
<water> hm
<iStormy> mine is giving me blank posts now and again, annoying
05:20pm
<water> well there's the obviously dumb solution of compiling text
<water> otoh code in slate consists of message-sends, which are method objects with their slots bound
<water> so we could just place those objects in the slots
<water> iow we reduce quoting to binding (?)
<water> but message-sends are composed of further message-sends
<water> so actually evaluating the "outer" send of the code (the top of the syntax tree) must be either delayed or quoted
<water> the question is what would slate do naturally?
<water> what do you think?
<eihrul> quoting :)
<eihrul> though i guess it depends on your preference for laziness...
<water> i do prefer laziness, but i'm not sure to what extent it will affect slate
<eihrul> not sure to what extent it'd effect a compiler either :)
<water> hm well to evaluate, a message must be sent to obtain a 'result' or some other value
<water> actually it all reduces to 'result's
<water> so if we gave that particular slot lazy semantics, we effectively have laziness and/or quoting
05:30pm
<water> would that work?
<eihrul> though, what if you wanted to force the result and put it into the slot? :)
<eihrul> how would you specify that...
<water> hm
<water> well afaik the evaluator is where that happens.... i.e. at top-level message-sends
<eihrul> but how would you make a piece of code do that...
<water> well if it's at the evaluator level, then it's outside the language, or am i confusing something?
<eihrul> perhaps...
<water> oh yeah
<water> even at thte evaluator level you have to build such expressions without evaluating
<water> er
<water> but that can be done by not applying 'result'
<water> darn it, i'm in some sort of circular reasoning
<water> help me out here :)
<eihrul> well... i see quoting a sugaring for constructing message objects manually :)
<water> for instance, the merlin stuff claims to not require reflectors
<eihrul> s/quoting a/quoting as a/g
<water> so you don't see a problem?
<eihrul> not if quoting is used...
<water> huh?
<water> i thought you just said that manual construction of message-sends subsumes quoting
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<water> grrr
<eihrul> rmm, well, quoting is just a sugaring afais :)
<water> iow redundant?
<eihrul> yes, but manually constructing message objects could be cumbersome :)
<water> huh? it's the same thing as writing code!
05:40pm
<eihrul> not to the compiler...
<water> hm
<water> so what's the compiler's view?
<eihrul> the difference is that one is code to create an object...
<eihrul> whereas the other is just code
<eihrul> er create a message object
<water> huh?
<water> please re-state
<eihrul> ok...
<eihrul> you can consider a quoted piece of code
<eihrul> to be a 'macro' that gets rewritten to appropriate code to create the object quoted object...
<eihrul> s/object quoted object/quoted object
<eihrul> one is compile-time, one is run-time
<water> hm
<water> so is it part of the language?
<eihrul> that's a murky area :)
<water> screw muddy waters
<eihrul> well... it's a part of the language
<eihrul> i would suppose
<water> but it breaks the model, it seems
<eihrul> unless you have a good macro system :)
<water> we haven't even shown that macros don't break the language
<eihrul> well, i'm not necessarily advocating macros...
<water> what about a slot in Root?
<eihrul> though, hmmm...
<eihrul> laziness might be more desireable for things like closures
05:50pm
<eihrul> for control flow messages :)
<water> why?
<eihrul> well, because quoting only gives you a representation of the code... (the message objects)
<eihrul> would mean that every flow control construct would have to recompile the message objects to code they could run :)
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<water> hm ok
<water> so laziness is either a must, or we've already had it in smalltalk and self and never realized it?
<eihrul> both :)
<water> whatever
<eihrul> well, since blocks correspond to an implementation of laziness
<water> so what significant difference between slate and self would require quoting?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at water
<water> hmmmmm
<eihrul> i don't think we'd require quoting...
<water> blocks implement laziness, don't they? :)
<water> indeed so i was right earlier
<eihrul> well, save maybe to directly create a selector object? :)
<water> well hm
<water> i'm not so sure
<water> creating a selector amounts to evaluating a function on the object to return a new object with the added slot
<eihrul> though, with blocks, laziness is explicitly specified...
<water> the selector happens to be an object with unbound arguments
<water> yeah but aren't all my method objects blocks?
<water> since they are namespaces?
<eihrul> yep, uniformity would argue they are...
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<water> so i think we don't even need quoting for slot-creation
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<water> wb
<water> although we may be ignoring an aspect of evaluation i suppose
<water> something that occured to me is whether we can force a computation?
<water> oh wait
06:00pm
<water> duh we just ask for the 'result'
<eihrul> yes...
<eihrul> but the action of asking for the 'result' is itself lazy
<water> really?
<water> i mean, that effects the top-level, too?
<water> it's one thing to make a closure that asks for the result
<water> it's another thing entirely to actually ask for it
* eihrul/#tunes ponders.
<water> either from the evaluator or indirectly
<water> since every expression evaluated in a lazy system ultimately derives from the need of a user-expression's evaluation for the value
<eihrul> yes... but if the read-eval-print loop is implemented in the language itself :)
<eihrul> you need a sort of inverse-quote?
<water> hm
<water> no, because of the self-hosting
<water> i mean, there must be a primitive (BasicApply)
<eihrul> well, some part of the system needs to force :)
<water> yeah, and that's BA :)
<water> does it make sense?
<eihrul> well, actually, booting does an implicit force on bootup code :)
<water> heh
<water> good example
<water> ultimately the 'power on' switch is the only thing forcing evaluation ;)
<water> so we're kosher?
<eihrul> yeah, you force the slate object for a result...
<eihrul> which may take indefinitely long to compute...
<water> i.e. no quoting except if we get into syntactic macros
<water> right
<water> way cool. now i have lots of things to resolve in the web docs
<water> since the question of quoting was a biggy
<water> well, i still think it's pretty nice that we only need 4 special syntax characters so far
<water> ( ) / :
<water> if possible, it'd be nice to reduce the usual text and math bullshit to syntactic sugar
06:10pm
<water> but we'll have to see about that
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> that was going to be my next question to re-bring up :)
<eihrul> how do we allow allow for numbers and text?
<water> ok
<water> btw, i'm going to use "self" wherever both self and smalltalk apply from now on
<eihrul> oh... that reminds me
<eihrul> that mop survey paper you sent me
<water> yes?
<eihrul> i believe talked about tagged pointers and viewing them as interleaved namespaces etc :)
<water> oh? hm
<water> what was that filename again?
<eihrul> rainer
<water> what page?
<eihrul> though, i could just be remembering some other paper... lemme look for it again
<eihrul> page 5
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<water_> ok so page 5
<water_> yeah, it kinda infers namespaces
<water_> but anyway
<water_> text and math
<eihrul> though visual interfaces resolve so much of that :)
<water_> self uses syntactic sugar to help create numbers and text through the evaluator
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<water_> how so?
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<eihrul> well, they make referring to objects in different namespaces easier...
<water> oh, /numbers/integers/3 ?
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> or something like that?
<eihrul> would be nice if 3 could just be a selector into integer space...
<water> hm
<eihrul> and text could just be a selector into text space :)
<water> i disagree
<eihrul> i dunno, was just an idea
<eihrul> not necessarily a good one
<water> at least if it precludes allowing other defaults
<water> but then i feel very strongly about how i want the math system to be different from other systems
<water> i hate the usual programming language math systems
<eihrul> details :
<eihrul> )
<water> yes hm
06:20pm
<water> well obviously you can't instantiate every integer
<eihrul> because i come from the old regime of normal programming math systems and need enlightenment :)
<water> an inductive definition works well, but requires shortcutting
<water> heh ok
<water> rewriting of course handles a lot of this stuff to a certain extent, but not directly
<AlonzoTG> what's a good hardware comparrason shop site? I need a gnu monitor. =\
<water> atg: you ask US?
<AlonzoTG> (I want something that will last longer than a year...)
<AlonzoTG> =\
* AlonzoTG/#tunes doesn't even know hoo to ask...
<AlonzoTG> =\
<water> sigh
<water> check dmoz
<water> look under the computer/hw directory
* eihrul/#tunes has had good experiences with NEC monitors...
<water> anyway math
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* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> of course self has good support for unbounded integers, but the code relies on primitives that are machine-dependent
<water> hw registers aren't integers, they're bit-fields
<AlonzoTG> I'm using a 13 year old NEC monitor right now...
<AlonzoTG> the lower left corner is curling off to the left. =P
<eihrul> water: lisp has nice math system as well... mmm, bignums :)
<water> atg: um. i don't care
<water> yes i know, forgot to mention
<water> but the systems are equivalent in how they implement them
<eihrul> though unbounded precision floating point would be nice
<eihrul> though really damned hard :)
<water> er... and the form of the code
<water> maple and mathematica have those
<water> but they work on c
<eihrul> really?
<eihrul> wow...
<eihrul> must check them out then
<water> yeah i loved them when i hit college
<water> i ran a computer lab for engineering students
<water> when i was 17 :)
<water> but i digress
<water> well, since i don't have a concrete strategy, let's just say that i want a system like that in slate
<water> and one that doesn't stick with a single numbering system or a single algebra or logic etc
<water> iow tunes :D
<water> or that's what i used to think tunes would help with
06:30pm
<eihrul> don't see why it wouldn't...
<water> then i realized that i was addressing those needs in arrow, and that tunes didn't support those things
<water> well, check the site docs
<eihrul> i did, just over a year ago
<water> i mean go through them with a fine-toothed comb
<water> the most advanced stuff mentioned doesn't address the real numbers properly for instance
<water> since we're (tunes not slate) nowhere near having something that fulfills the hll, i find it hard to believe that what i envision tunes will realize
<eihrul> another thought...
<water> this is why i was ranting a year ago about "primitives" on the mlist
<eihrul> is not generally a short-hand for ( ... )
<water> huh?
<water> subject of above sentence, please?
<eihrul> oh...
<eihrul> doh
<eihrul> damn irc client
<water> heh
<eihrul> '/' is not generally a short-hand for ( ... )
<eihrul> given foo/bar, it is... given /bar, it has no appropriate expansion :)
<water> you mean in ordinary systems
<water> i don't follow
<eihrul> '/bar' is absolute
<eihrul> 'foo/bar' is relative
<water> hm
<eihrul> though what is the absolute namespace?
<water> not sure
<water> maybe there shouldn't be one
<eihrul> since /bar can even be relative... or atleast in a distributed system
<water> otoh, the / syntax is a shorthand
<water> i mean syntactic sugar
<eihrul> though, would anyone have any reason to change the absolute namespace?
<water> don't know
<eihrul> in which case it could perhaps be a property of Root?
<water> maybe someone speaking a different language?
<water> well remember Root /= /
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> perhaps / is the slate object that gets booted :)
<water> er
<water> hm
<water> i think the language-translation issue is pretty big
<eihrul> hmm?
06:40pm
<water> especially if we want a language that's really open to distribution
<water> ever read jecel's paper on translating proglangs?
<eihrul> nope
<eihrul> still need to read the rest of his papers
<water> he had a hard time making a portuguese version of smalltalk because of the particular concepts in portuguese words
<eihrul> title of paper?
<water> hm
<eihrul> i'll check it out
<eihrul> "Proposal for a New Generation of User Interfaces?"
<eihrul> is that it?
<water> hm
<water> http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/tech.html
<water> at the bottom
<water> the very bottom
<water> i don't think he came up with a good solution, but he indicates some major difficulties
<water> hm time for dinner and a movie
<water> we can discuss the math and string stuff when we meet again
<water> i know i've had a lot of ideas on it, but what's appropriate for slate has eluded me
<eihrul> k
<eihrul> i'm probably going to read more acd&i
<water> k :)
<water> nothing wrong with that :)
<eihrul> just getting to the fun parts...
<water> heh
<eihrul> got past all the graph/lattice stuff...
<water> i forget, which is that anyway?
06:50pm
<eihrul> the title or the chapter?
<water> title
<eihrul> advanced compiler design & implementation
<water> oh yeah
<water> duh
<water> well if you have questions, let me know
<water> unfortunately, a lot of that book doesn't carry over to dynamic languages without some serious thought
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> it's heavily biased towards static languages
<eihrul> but i'll pick up some more books on the subject
<eihrul> and hunt around for papers
<water> so what ch. are you on?
<eihrul> and then dig around through self source code
<eihrul> 13
<water> ah yes getting to the fun stuff :)
<eihrul> not that lattices aren't fun :)
<water> data-flow langauges, btw, make the entire ch13 redundant
<water> basically the syntax stops you from redundancy
* eihrul/#tunes can't wait for school to end.
<eihrul> sleep, eat, read, irc... repeat
<water> wow. i haven't gone through all the cool stuff in this book in a year
* water/#tunes slams the book shut
<water> n/m i've learned the lessons
<water> and slate's going to use 'em :)
<water> whew well i'll bbl then
* eihrul/#tunes waves.
<water> t00d13s all :)
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<eihrul> hey
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<hcf> hmm
10:30pm
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<hcf> hi thomas
11:20pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0219
IRC log ended Sat Feb 19 00:00:01 2000