IRC log started Thu Dec 23 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1223 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us910.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us837.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) since it's dead in here any damn way... :; cLIeNUX0 /dev/tty1 r 23:40:37 /source/core/H3sm :;H3sm words bye | format processtoken doword ?abbreviation readstdins ?word parsetoken hexnumber ?hexnum nextchar ?char ?segments= words previous dump .name beep .chars .string .r .ps .p p2+s p2dup ?hex ascii->digit tab blank cr maskchar chars abs - , digits hexdigits itoken tib toklen USize charsize dp beginparsearea endparsearea latest write read zero yes XOR ushift udivmodlsB true ->p ->link ->code ->r * swap ! s->p s->r setpsi setrsi setip setsi setSize rup r->s r->psi r->p r-> r-1 r@p return rdrop ?r= ?r ?= .bin .x pup pswap p! p->s_bd p->s p->r p-> p-1 p-c p-s p+c p+1 p+s p+ + p@ pdup pdrop over OR one onbits nothing no p- negate NOT move max maskdual maskbyte ip+ halve go gap flag getrsi getpsi getSize getsi @+ @ false errmit emit ell dup drop double doHNC dolit cells_bd cells bytes_bd bytes bye bump ?positive ?contents= aint AND address :; cLIeNUX0 /dev/tty1 r 23:40:51 /source/core/H3sm :; That's my 3-stacker 01:50am -:- fire [no@209-68-229-46.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes -:- fire has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Today fire turns 15... 3 years to manhood. yow :D congrats thanks :D so what's up guys? ^ is up 02:10am i hope you aren't like fare :P * Fufie/#tunes needs breakfast.. but must read a dozen cartoons first fare pulls stuff like that all the time I'm a lot like Fare I think. I added 160 Linux syscalls to eforth :> isn't it pretty late sweden? D: wow sounds like fun pretty late sweden? in sweden like afternoon it's pretty handy. i wish eforth would have certain things that others have isn't if...then not part of eforth? It's half past eleven I guess.. at least it is so here in Norway oh sorry i mix you scandinavians up all the time some form of if is pretty hard to avoid. if then else is stock Forth I think oh ok then fire: that's a great sin :p bbl and "if" tests if the top item on the data stack is true, i.e. non-zero fire: let me give you a few simple rules to memorise it: norway=vikings, sweden=the chef in the muppets, and danes.. hmm.. :) :D 02:20am ' address dump 080480a4 07 00 80 00 61 64 64 72 65 73 73 00 90 80 04 08 address 080480b4 ff 05 34 e6 04 08 a1 34 e6 04 08 89 45 f0 8b 55 4 4 E U I wrote ' and dump tonight -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving) 02:30am -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf07.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- SignOff colorg: #TUNES ( Rick Hohensee humbubba@smart.net) -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes IT'S RAINING!!!!!!! Thank the Lard, it's raining!!!!!!!!!!! >>> Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] requested PING 945952687 736247 from #tunes 04:40am the rain is getting rid of the snow so rain is good :) what snow?!? snow is, like, cold man, be warned I'm celebrating because in over a week since I've started working here, it's been hellfire-hot every single day it has been snow here the last week I come in at 10 to 11 o'clock, when the sun is at its peak... and it's a steep climb up lemme see if I can find some photos of the place it's practically inside the Tijuca forest http://www.impa.br/AboutImpa/galeria-fotos.html 04:50am * Kaufmann/#tunes envies you damn Scandinavians why? the snow is a mess kauf: you're in the middle of the jungle.. Oh, how I pity you... with your booming economy, your beautiful blond women and your breezy summers :) 05:00am but these days we've had snow here, we don't like that other parts of norway can have snow in Bergen we don't like it except the kids i thought it only rained in Bergen? :) that's a myth :p zarq, what about you? what about me? where do you live? i live in the netherlands * Kaufmann/#tunes kicks himself what for? 05:10am aaaairggh ah well, at least it doesn't rain here :) (no snow either, though) but lousy conditions for mountain climbing :) LOL seriously, you people don't understand just how lucky you are no, we aren't lucky until we get a Christmas covered with snow Okay, how many people in the channel right now are called Anders? the last time that happened was in 1979, i think. lucky? I am seriously considering moving further south to southern france or nothern italy -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lewis.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from king.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is king.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.07.0 (from king.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Fri Dec 17 1999 at 19 56:20 CST(from king.openprojects.net) -:- king.openprojects.net u2.10.07.0 dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(26)] 6% -:- [global users on irc(180)] 39% -:- [invisible users on irc(276)] 61% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 4% -:- [total users on irc(456)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 15 users per server) -:- [total channels created(170)] (avg. 2 users per channel) !king.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 56 (55 clients) !king.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #tunes: Today fire turns 15... 3 years to manhood. -:- topic set by fire [Thu Dec 23 02:16:20 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:6)] [ TUNES ] [ Kaufmann ] [ zarq ] [ Fufie ] [ abi ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.581 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES -:- Kaufmann_ [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes umm.. there are two in my family when I think of it, but I seldom talk to them ;) aaaairgh fufie; :) It's ^X, /NOT/ ^Z!!!!!!! * Kaufmann_/#tunes is a big loser try `fg' next time :) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[amadeus.fluid.impa.br]) >>> Kaufmann_ [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] requested PING 945955195 616739 from #tunes is the job market for eccentric programmers good in brazil? you're joking, right? -:- Kaufmann_ is now known as Kaufmann no I'm an eccentric programmer, and I consider myself incredibly lucky to have gotten this scholarship so it's not a good job market? to put it succinctly, no ow 05:20am fufie; if you want to be sure you get a job, move to California I hear the Silicon Valley is god-damn awful it is :) although the climate is irresistable it's almost always the same temperature thanks to the warm sea breeze the costs are too high over there not if you make enough money it isn't 05:30am Guys, get this -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Kaufmann has no reason) -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes I've found this pointer-hugger who's trying to convince me that Lisp is obsolete and past its time It's really funny where? `pointer-hugger' :) 05:40am -:- `ActiveMatrix [Anana@194.72.80.105] has joined #tunes -:- `ActiveMatrix [Anana@194.72.80.105] has left #tunes [] newsgroup 05:50am ... I mean, nothing against low-level languages per se... but the guy seems to think that C++ is state-of-the-art for everything, and that /real/ languages like Lisp or Smalltalk are dead that is a common view from programmers who don't know lisp except for intros in mainstream textbooks This guy wouldn't know a good language if it bit him in the ass 06:00am pointer-hugger? * Fare/#tunes is scared because he saw linux kernel hackers with such a prejudice against Lisp looks like they had a bad academic experience with lisp, or so pointer-hugger is my blanket name for C/C++ bigots oh one of the worst problems with Lisp is that there are too many professors out there who can't teach it 06:10am kauf: ehh? yeah if the course is a bout lambda claculus, should the class learn lisp or learn lc with lisp as the language? lambda calculus it's a big difference between using lisp in education and teaching lisp The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended. -- F. Bastiat Fufie: should learn lc with Haskell as the language indeed fare: haskell has typed lc last I checked 06:20am Fufie: doesn't hbc have an option to not do typechecking? can't remember else, there exist pure lc interpreters in haskell, too, when you want to go round typing. but most universities that use lisp-like languages, use scheme, and then they use it for lc and easy courses on functional programming. universities don't give "lisp hacking" courses scheme and lisp seem both inappropriate to me as ways to do pure lc. scheme is basically lc and not much else it some kind of lc, but not the one you study in tcs ... except for the rather verbose syntax it has applicative order evaluation, and it has multiple arguments per lambda instead of easy currying. (define foo (lambda (n) (+ n 1))) vs. foo = \n -> n + 1 i.e. (lambda (x y) (x y)) != (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (x y))) kauf: verbosity is hardly the problem in univ. classes Fufie: yes it is. It confuses the students. fare: to do rewritings with several arguments pr lambda is one of the first lessons I used Fufmann: sure. What I meant is, that LISP doesn't match the simple lambda-calculus learnt in tcs courses Fufmann: that doesn't mean LISP is bad or anything; just that there's a mismatch. So that teaching simple lc with lisp is inadequate. Better teach LISP as a real programming language instead fare: no, but the courses I checked when I defined what we had in the course basically was teaching them how normal lisp-code is derived from simple lc excuse me, Fare, I'm still kinda sleepy... what is the difference between the first and the second lambda forms above? (Except for the fact that you call the first one as (f a b) and the second one as ((f a) b)) but without misleading the students into thinking there is an equivalence between them lc and lisp Kaufmann: the difference is precisely what you said. ah okie fare: no, I am a common lisper and it might not surprise you that there were several comments about scheme not being a real language and that serious work required CL ;) Kaufie: the way you curry stuff is important for side effects, too Fufmann: doesn't surprise me. ...but pure LC allows not side effects... Kaufie: another source of confusion for students. 06:30am fare: and it was a course about theoretical models of expressing stuff in computers where the prof. dealed with the turing machines and electrical circuits and I dealt with the lc kauf: pure LC is a strawman Kaufie: again, I'm opposed to mixing too many things while teaching. THAT'S IT! I know too little math!!! Fufmann: haskell does (typed) pure LC. Starting Jan. 3, I'm taking the linear algebra course. * Fare/#tunes fixed his news server, and can now read c.l.l again! fare: but side-effects are still needed and those are dealt with with monads which are def. more complex than simple LC (or can I?) LOL monads make my head hurt :) most category theory makes ones head hurt Fufmann: monads are more complex than simple LC, but not more than single-threaded side-effects. (as you have in most imperative languages) somewhat related question: does anyone know of any articles on how to reduce side-effects in CL? dynamic scopes for global variables help, but it would be nice with something more convincing 06:40am you might define a large amount of macro definitions that require explicit passing of global state so that you pass, e.g., to setf not only the symbol and the new value, but also the current state, and it returns a new state in which the symbol has the new value, and not the previous one I have some simple macros for working with states but it is much work of course, this is absurdly impractical yes I also hava simple walker which changes all NCONC's to APPEND, and NSTRING-DOWNCASE to STRING-DOWNCASE to remove side-effects, but it generates lots of garbage (and other functions of course) oh well.. need a shower have fun :) 06:50am -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-231.s231.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann back Hey Al 08:10am om I pissed water off last night. =( how come? I was being too stupid.... I guess that's normal for ya j/k I fear him because he is like ten times as smart as me... =\ and I'm in the 96th percentile! well, it's a logarithmic scale, so he's only in the 99.6th percentile, I guess :) how exactly do you find out in which percentile you are? 08:20am Al? -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp09.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hey eihrul lo abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 3 days, 23 hours, 27 minutes and 38 seconds ago, saying: sort of :) [Sun Dec 19 08:56:51 1999] I took the mensa test. my IQ was a punty 127 puny tsc I got 143 :) Go join Mensa then. =\ Anyway, everybody knows that the only thing that IQ tests measure is your ability to take IQ tests. * eihrul/#tunes nods. Eisenhower was amazed to find out that almost 50% of the American population was of below average intelligence. much like using a computer... haha ll lol they can approximate what you want to do, but they don't exactly do what you want them to LOL 08:30am must mapping a person onto a one dimensional number seems very shady to me... s/must/plus yeah "I'm not a number... I'm a vector!" indeed can we be matrices instead? :) can i be a tensor then? we're large continuous 4-D matrices "oooh... compute my eigenvalues, baby!!!!!" 08:40am * eihrul/#tunes ponders... a patent on assuming 1900-1939 is 2000-2039? that is lame that's not just lame... that's an insult on the collective intelligence of the entire industry LOL... "Quake on Java kills four" 08:50am So I've randomly decided to write a mini-LIFE in Perl 09:20am but, why? randomly, but why give in to the decision? there must be as many life clones out there as there are pong either that or give the cells strong ai :) LOL the way it's going to bloat, I might as well I know I'll end up bloating this program... it's what I do 09:30am DONE! In less than a page, and little over an hour strong-life? ? life with strong ai LOL not yet h how about "real life", I never quite understood why mortals like it so much ;) er oh, you just finished mini-life then? writing a dimulation we can observe would be nice.. Fufie: you tell me... well, not /quite/ done... I still have to write a display function simulation :P that'll mean using curses or something of the sort all of which I /intensely/ dislike ncurses, yes! just don't use X11 or similar toolkit kaufie: the name 'curses' came from the wife of the original programmer.. it described what he was screaming all the time rotfl that explains it ncurses is of course new curses to supplement the old ones in case you repeat yourself never understood why they called the curses-replacement for 'slang' though yeah nonetheless, it's beautiful code depends on your definition of "beautiful", of course but I guess "yeah motherfucker, get that fucking shit over here" was cursing earlier now it's slang it bears a strong resemblance to line noise 09:40am perhaps if you ran it through an image viewer... it could look "beautiful" in a format that does compression don't worry, I'll bloat it well enough in time. perhaps perl-mini-life is a secret message from life beyond ours :) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us740.javanet.com] has joined #tunes and when uncompressed... will reveal t that would explain the syntax hcf, care to take a look at my mini-LIFE program in Perl? Kaufmann: can i see? I can send you bear in mind that it doesn't work yet; I still have to put in the display routine also, it only reads in from files, and the command-line arguments are clumsy and undocumented still want it? :) 09:50am yah eihrul argh gimme your email no dcc? * Kaufmann/#tunes can't seem to get it to work reading message 1 of 11 (2853 octets) .fetchmail: SMTP connect to localhost failed mmm.... how fun yeah doh apt-get upgrade overwrote my inetd.conf 10:00am reading message 2 of 11 (2419701 octets) more fun... who sends 2MB emails to a mailing list? eihrul: keep a backup eh? wow it's core! its fine then :) LOL Done! Not as painful as I thought it'd be Although it now requires GetOpt and Term::Screen 10:10am ...and now I'm leaving. -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Do not meddle in the Affairs of Wizards, for thou areth Crunchy, and Good with Ketchup.) 10:20am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) ouch. My xenon2 floppies seem to be broken. 11:20am abi: datetime? well, datetime is Thu Dec 23 1999 11:45:51 PST -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System || 1 year of #tunes irc logs || fire turns 15 today 11:50am -:- lispbliss [lispbliss@207.144.193.237] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lispbliss: #TUNES (Read error to lispbliss[207.144.193.237]: Connection reset by peer) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.163] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.163]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- gandalf [gandalf@du-148-233-199-45.prodigy.net.mx] has joined #tunes So what cartoon's are on today?? :) 01:50pm uf -:- SignOff gandalf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for gandalf[du-148-233-199-45.prodigy.net.mx]) 02:00pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us204.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.28] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us204.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us204.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:24pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us204.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.28] has left #tunes [] -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: back any TeX gurus here? here being where? this channel? i'm not a TeX guru okay, probably few or none is there a simple macroexpand or something to see what code is generated by a \newenvironment? got it working.. a developer needs to know all kinds of arcane stuff.. it's a stressful job/hobby/way of life :-/ it could be worse... Fufie: where else would the eliteness feeling come from? sometimes I wish I was a postman and just delivered some mails and went home and watched telly at two o'clock and really enjoyed the soap on the telly.. ack that would suck 04:00pm tremendously so but it would be a simple life so would death I would enjoy beverly hills and the dynasty, and never ever hear of joyce or dante but you don't go doing that too often... much less about meta-circularity, reflection and bootstrapping * Fufie/#tunes sighs -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-189.s443.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes Fufie: hmm, any good lisp books you'd recommend? eih: tutorial or more advanced? 04:10pm well, accomodating both would be nice I remember years ago when I liked c++, and then I read Coplien's "Advanced C++ Programming Styles and Idioms" and it changed a lot in my head and it showed how a lot of "impossible" stuff was done in c++ and stuff I had wanted for a long time.. so I have bc and ac.. before coplien and after coplien examples perhaps? :) the other book which turned a lot upside down in my head and had the same effect was Graham's "On Lisp" which showed me how to do impossible stuff, in any languages (I thought) but which was easy in Lisp.. that book is a killer :) well what impossible things specifically? :) Graham's other book "ANSI Common Lisp" is an excellent book for learning Common Lisp if you know how to hack code already, but the beginning is best when you have read the whole book, then you get what he is talking about in the intro :) (everybody hates the intro at first, it sounds pretentious if one knows other languages) [I'll get to the impossible things :-) ] there is also Norvig's "Paradigms in Artifical Intelligence" which is a good book and ok for beginners and more advanced readers but it is geared vs AI apps more than general programming, but is a good alternative for starters Gakuk hi fare :) there seem to be people redoing TeX in LISP, once in a while, but what they do is either not finished or proprietary om Okay, Toonze is a VM OS. and just when ones head is already filled, there is "The Art of the Metaobject Protocol" (AMOP) which shows how one wirtes a reflective OO-language But the VMz can kreate GNU vmz dynamickallie? That is like the Dragon in GEB:EGB!!!! u kan't eskape yer VM to kreate a gnu one! =\ a dragon in GEB:EGB ??? what chapter? eihrul: as for the impossible stuff in 'On Lisp' it was for me how you basically could change the whole language completely and rewrite the lisp to suit ones need completely, including making new language constructs.. this is _tough_ in most other languages There was a dragon in GEB that tried to escape its 2D etching by leaping into a hole but ended up only byting its own tail.... hmm... 04:20pm gonna hafto lurk it up... eihrul: the writing of "domain languages" suddenly went from "tough job" to "easy" and that is how it should be * eihrul/#tunes thinks he's going to overspend his book budget again. "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" (SICP) is also a great book for learning lispy thinking even though it uses Scheme where can i order all these cheaply? :) Fufie: s/tough/impossible/ local bookstores here suck and carry only trends eihrul: noamazon.com Fare: amazon isn't cheap eih: boycott amazon.. use b&n or sth sth? I don't know all bookstores on the Net sth is something abi: sth is something i already had it that way, eihrul. 04:30pm eih: 'On Lisp' is not always an easy book to get.. I had to wait weeks publishers WILL burn in hell... Fufie: B&N ships within 24 hours :) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.109] has joined #tunes that book specifically Fufie: norvig is 92, right? eih: great :) (I think they did a reprint recently) norvig is 92.. let me check up to $260 in shopping cart, woo norvig is 92 yes, though I have a more recent reprint there's a 98 here but it doesn't look like it is quite the same book 98 sounds right url? just go on bn and search for paradigms on artificial intelligence you'll see it 04:40pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) hmm, i should pick up a smalltalk book as well yes, you want the 92 ed., green orange + other colours yes, the 98 didn't have anything about lisp it looks :) Fufie: icuc, http://www.dante.de/projects/nts/NTS.html eih: Object Oriented Programming in Common LISP: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS is also a nice book, I have addopted the library's book and they're not getting it back ;) hcf: looks interesting.. probably a better solution than the hairy pascal oo, haskell book as well hcf: the project doesn't seem very active anymore though hcf: or maybe: Wednesday 3rd February 1999 04:50pm yummy.. lots of nice docs generated for my lisp code :) * eihrul/#tunes sighs. all this cash, no credit card hey, a slackware 1.1.2 bootdisk! what're you going to do with it? push it onto the "erasable floppy" heap