IRC log started Tue Jul  6 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0706
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-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: free reflective computing system <www.tunes.org> || visit #tpp || freeos <www.freeos.grid9.net>
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<hcf> Fare: have u been able to look at that those urls yet?
<Fare> some of them
<abi> some of them are in Wiki
<hcf> abi: forget some of them
<abi> hcf: I forgot some of them
<hcf> any good?
<abi> hcf: no idea
09:00am
<hcf> Fare: any good of what uv seen?
<Fare> sure
<Fare> although some of them I already known about
09:10am
* Fare/#Tunes is checking out the cmucl cvs repository...
<hcf> Fare: is there any need for abi to have an rfc index?
<hcf> as in, rfc 2288 => Using Existing Bibliographic Identifiers as Uniform Resource Names. C. Lynch, C. Preston, R. Daniel. February 1998. (Format: TXT=21628 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL)
09:20am
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<Cyreb> what is this place
[Cyreb(user2130@adl-56k-198.tpgi.com.au)] can u help
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11:50am
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<Kaufmann> This FreeOS rapes the concept of Free Software!!!
<smkl> you were able to find some actual information from their site?
12:10pm
!Bhaal:*! Coz u will be LinuxCaring for us :)
<Kaufmann> From little I saw, it's definitely non-Free.
<Kaufmann> It's being developed in secrecy, for chrissakes.
<smkl> sounds like a typical windows clone project. they should be working on making linux more user-friendly to reach their goals
<Fare> maybe have a special section in Review/OSes.html for YAFOPs? Or YAWCP ?
12:20pm
<Kaufmann> What's a YAFOP?
<smkl> yet another free os project?
<Fare> yup
<smkl> yet another windows clone project?
<Fare> yup
<hcf> abi: yafop is Yet Another Free Operating system Project
<Kaufmann> OIC
<Kaufmann> hcf, decapitate... huh, decapitalize that "Free".
<hcf> Kaufmann: huh?
<hcf> s/huh/why/
<Kaufmann> Because Free with a capital F implies Freeness, as in Free Software or Free Speech.
<hcf> yeah, and?
<Kaufmann> ...and that's not the case.
<hcf> the use of capitalization in acronym expansion is to show which letters become the letters of the acronym
<smkl> abi: tla is Tree Letter Acronym
<hcf> smkl: Tree?
<hcf> ;)
<smkl> ick
<smkl> abi: tla is Three Letter Acronym
<abi> ...but tla is Tree Letter Acronym...
<Kaufmann> Yes, but that's still confusing
12:30pm
<smkl> abi: no, tla is Three Letter Acronym
<abi> okay, smkl.
<Kaufmann> tla?
<abi> tla is Three Letter Acronym
<Kaufmann> Kewl!
<smkl> abi: ffla is Fucking Four Letter Acronym
<hcf> Kaufmann: confusing, why?
<Kaufmann> Where is the code for abi?
<smkl> abi: yafla is Yet Another Five Letter Acronym
<hcf> Kaufmann: www.tunes.org/~nef/abi/i*
<Kaufmann> hcf: because upon reading this, someone may think that all aforementioned projects are Free, when that is not the case.
<Kaufmann> I know, I hate semantics wars too, but what can I do?
<hcf> Kaufmann: if it aint free then it shouldnt be refered to w/ YAFOP
<Kaufmann> From what I understand of YAFOP, for a project to qualify it need only be free, not Free.
<Fare> abi: ETLA is Extended Three Letter Acronym
<Fare> maybe instead YA[IUW]OP? Yet Another Internet|Usenet|Web OS Project?
<hcf> Kaufmann: then how about, YAfOP?
<Kaufmann> That looks good, hcf... if you're not afraid to be labeled as a marketroid :)
12:40pm
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<Kaufmann> Back
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<_BC> HI
<Kaufmann> HI!
<Kaufmann> </sarcasm>
* _BC/#tunes sees.
* _BC/#tunes has a question; perhaps even someone reading the IRC LOGS might have an idea..
<Kaufmann> Go 'head.
* _BC/#tunes Is there a search engine designed towards finding technical infos encompassing computer science.?
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<_BC> Hi bineng
<binEng> hi
<_BC> any idea, kaufmann?
12:50pm
<binEng> _BC: Have I met you before?
<_BC> nope; I haven't seen you here before.
<_BC> where from bineng?
<Kaufmann> Nope, BC
<Kaufmann> Hey, Anders
<Kaufmann> Got my last email?
<Kaufmann> s/last/most recent/;
<binEng> Kaufmann: yes, just reading it
<binEng> Kaufmann: if you have some time now, we could discuss this crypt
<Kaufmann> depends on what you mean by "some time"
<binEng> :)
<binEng> not much
<Kaufmann> in that case, OK
* _BC/#tunes Is there a search engine designed towards finding technical infos encompassing computer science.?
<Kaufmann> abi: go to hell
<abi> Kaufmann excuse me?
<Kaufmann> abi: I said go to hell
<abi> Kaufmann: why?
<_BC> abi is a bot.?
<_BC> abi
<abi> yes, _BC?
<Kaufmann> BC, yep
<_BC> you are a bot.
<abi> ...but abi is the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn...
<abi> Kaufmann: why should goto hell?
<_BC> :)
<abi> Kaufmann: why should i goto hell?
<Kaufmann> abi: because you are Artificially Intelligent, and naturally stupid.
<abi> Kaufmann: so what
01:00pm
<_BC> ? does abi represent any experimental technologies that the #tunes crowd has designed?
<_BC> I be going now.  ttul...
<_BC> byby
<Kaufmann> Peace!
<_BC> ...Live long, and visit the bathroom often!
<abi> _BC: i am one of God's own prototypes. some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. too weird to live, and too rare to die.
<Kaufmann> abi: so until you get your nodes properly set up, you won't deserve to be in the company of people with a Functioning Cerebrum.
<Kaufmann> LOL!
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<abi> Kaufmann: what makes you think that you deserve to be in my company?
<Kaufmann> abi: you're a cocky little robot, aren't you?
<abi> i don't know, kaufmann
<Kaufmann> abi: that's right. You don't. Because you're a RAM-impaired dimwit.
<abi> Kaufmann: and you aren't a dimwit too?
<Kaufmann> abi: yes, we're all dimwits. But you're a bigger one.
<abi> Kaufmann: i be the supreme, you MUST bow to me
* binEng/#tunes wonders who is playing with abi
<Kaufmann> abi: you be an electronic punk, I must KICK your floppy disk!
01:10pm
<abi> Kaufmann: go ahead and try puny human
<Kaufmann> ROTFL
<Kaufmann> abi: aren't you related to HAL or something?
<abi> kaufmann: i don't know
<abi> Kaufmann: aren't you related to bobo the monkey?
<Kaufmann> Oh, /come on/. Who's spoofing around with abi?
01:20pm
<Kaufmann> Bye all
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein. I'm the newest member of the KICK-BAN G|R campaign!)
01:30pm
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<billyboof> hello
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<_QZ> hello
02:20pm
<billyboof> hows it going qz?  <i'm at work, sorry if i don't respond for a while>
<_QZ> heh, im sorry
02:40pm
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<water> hi all!
<hcf> hoy water
<water> what's up hcf?
<hcf> not much
<hcf> and u?
<water> hmm. i'm still digesting all those research papers
<water> so many good things to ponder
<water> hmm. an interesting mail from Fare
<Fare> which?
<abi> which is what
<Fare> what?
<water> fare!
<water> the one you posted to the main mailing list
<Fare> what is which?
<abi> i guess which is what
<hcf> abi: no, which is <reply>
<abi> okay, hcf.
<Fare> reply to jdl?
<water> "Re: FreeOS, the next generation Free operating system"
<Fare> oh, on review@
<water> yeah
<water> i still haven't read the new general list mail
<hcf> this is odd, http://lists.tunes.org/cgi-bin/wilma/review doesnt list july
04:30pm
<Fare> hcf: not updated, perhaps...
<Fare> within 24 hours, it should list it...
<water> hmm. Fare and Tril have stated well everything that i think i would wish to say about Prism
04:40pm
<water> they obviously put much more thought into than i
<Fare> water: do you mean the irc log?
<water> that and the e-mail responses
<Fare> ok
* Fare/#Tunes reads the CLHS
<water> the what?
<abi> somebody said the was Wizard of Oz type behaviour...claiming a lot showing little
<water> abi: huh?
<water> Fare: what's the CLHS? (being nosey, of course)
<Fare> abi: CLHS is the Common LISP HyperSpec at http://www.harlequin.com/education/books/HyperSpec/
<water> ahh
<water> oooh!
04:50pm
<Fare> harlequin is going bankrupt
<water> what for? don't they market anything profitable?
<Fare> What did my mom say about the CL community, already? Punished for their greed and arrogance.
* water/#TUNES can't imagine his mom ever commenting on the Common Lisp community.
<Fare> Sure they do. But Common LISP people made their core language heavily proprietary.
<water> i see.
<Fare> so that the market shrinked instead of expanding
<water> yes, that's certainly a killer in the internet-driven software market
<Fare> and so that every enhancement by a vendor is an argument *against* CL as a standard.
<water> indeed
<Fare> and every lack of enhancement is an argument *against* the vendor
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<Fare> it's a lose-lose situation
<water> a rock and a hard place
05:00pm
* Fare/#Tunes goto 0xF00D;
<water> hehe
* hcf/#tunes is away.
05:10pm
<Fare> 61453... the number of heaven!
<water> why?
* water/#TUNES looks up YHWH's number in the national phone directory...
<water> hmm. not there
<_QZ> could one of u send me a test email?
<water> sure
<_QZ> oh wait nevermind
<water> oh
<_QZ> i think i can send one from bespin
05:30pm
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<water> hi ruiner
<_ruiner_> hi water
<_ruiner_> whats shaking?
<water> it's quiet now, but ppl should be back soon
<water> i'm catching up on the news and some research
<_ruiner_> ah
<_ruiner_> such as?
<water> slashdot, wired, ...
<water> relating AOP to fragment use in BETA
06:00pm
<_ruiner_> hmmmmm.......k
<water> and some other AOP and MOP stuff
<_ruiner_> not much new on slashdot....I'm there myself
<water> i was at work since sunday, so monday's news is new as well for me
<_ruiner_> oh
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<_ruiner_> wb
<water> thanks
* hcf/#tunes is back
<_ruiner_> wb hcf
<hcf> thx
06:10pm
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<HickServ> fare read your mail
<water> hi hs
<HickServ> hi water
<water> fare will be back soon
<HickServ> ok
<_QZ> Fare: he wants to tell u about how he got banned from beos
<water> he's getting 0xf00d
<water> banned from beos? why?
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> i got banned on #Beos on efnet on five servers
<water> bwahhahahahahaha!
<HickServ> and i got 3 other people to go in under my name to annoy further
<HickServ> i wanted to piss them off real well
<water> hs: you like being an annoyance?
<_QZ> i only know of hcf that changed his nick
<_QZ> who else?
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<_QZ> bineng didnt
<HickServ> some others
<HickServ> that i know
<HickServ> on different networks
<_QZ> i dont remember seeing any other bans
<HickServ> well i had my friend go in  
<HickServ> so 2
<water> hehe. at least the beos op'ers had the guts to oust a useless neophyte when they saw one.
<water> :P
<HickServ> nah
<HickServ> im just plain annoying
<water> and you enjoy that?
<HickServ> YES!
<water> i see
06:20pm
<_QZ> water: u tryin to tell fare/tril something about hs? :)
<HickServ> you guys this isn't funny
<water> qz: i've said it outright. i just hope that they get the message sometime.
<HickServ> i don't think i like you anymore :(
<_QZ> haha
<water> hs: oh, yes it IS funny! :)
<HickServ> you guys are mean
<_QZ> HickServ: wanna be banned from brix?
* water/#TUNES 's feelings are definitely not hurt.
<HickServ> im gonna cry if you don't stop being mean
<water> ok! :)
<HickServ> im gonna go
<_QZ> to brix?
<HickServ> cause you guys are mean
<HickServ> no i have to leave
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:()
<_QZ> ah i wanted to ban him :(
<water> hehe
06:30pm
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<_ruiner_> http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news0899/jar.html
<_ruiner_> check that out.....
<water> ok
<water> huh?
<water> is this a hack or a joke?
<_ruiner_> its true man
<water> i'm looking at their news archives... they seem to support that viewpoint
<_ruiner_> funny stuff huh?
<water> hehe  AOL boycotted the church!
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> proof that aol is evil
<water> church casino night! :)
<water> this has to be a joke
06:40pm
* water/#TUNES looks for the word 'hack' on the site
<_ruiner_> telling you man...its legit
<water> born again nazi to administer church labor camp
<water> oh my god!
<water> there's no way someone faked this site to such a level of detail
<_ruiner_> what the hell?
<_ruiner_> clinton prayer breakfast? oh muthafucka!
<water> i'm not sure about it being legit, though
<_ruiner_> this has to be fake....
<water> there has to be something to tell that it isn't an elaborate hoax
<_ruiner_> I'm reading about them banning an effeminate man from their service....it has to be fake
<water> 78 pastors!
<water> it's fake
<water> "church staff" on the home page
* water/#TUNES has to find the hackers' signature
<water> "Copyright 1999/C.Harper - AmeriChrist Ltd" <- can you figure anything out from that?
* water/#TUNES looks at the html now
06:50pm
<water> Chris Harper
<water> "The religious satire that everyone is talking about, get there before the fundamentalist Christians get us shut down"
<water> <META NAME="description" CONTENT=(previous)
<water> hah haa!
<water> that is a Damned good site!
<_QZ> heh
<_ruiner_> it is pretty damned funny
<_QZ> hickserv said he had one of those jar jar binks dolls
<water> i almost thought it was for real for a few seconds
<_ruiner_> I did when I read the jar jar thing
<water> :P
<_ruiner_> after I saw other stories I knew though
<water> yeah
<water> that's a pretty polished satire, though
<water> very professional
<_ruiner_> very
* water/#TUNES bookmarks the site for future entertainment.
<_ruiner_> I'm impressed
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07:00pm
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<water> wb hcf
<water> hcf: where from?
<hcf> why ask?
<water> your ident reads from portland
* water/#TUNES is near seattle
<hcf> nef@me-portland-us310.javanet.com
<hcf> notice the 'me'
<hcf> as in, maine
<water> ah
<water> n/m then
<_QZ> water: but he is in the US so u can still go visit :)
<water> umm. not in the near future i won't
07:10pm
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<|D|iablo> alguem ai do Brasil???????
<|D|iablo> alguem ai do Brasil???????
[|D|iablo(IroN-2.6@dial162.iconet.com.br)] Brasil?????
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09:30pm
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<_ruiner_> anybody here?
* hcf/#tunes chimes
<_ruiner_> excellent
<_ruiner_> you know much java hcf?
<hcf> very little
<abi> very little is electronically available!
<hcf> abi: forget very little
<abi> hcf: I forgot very little
<hcf> whatcha need?
<_ruiner_> I'm going to attempt to write an applet
<hcf> why?
<_ruiner_> cuz it'll be cool
<hcf> uhm, sure, just like crack is cool
<_ruiner_> and 2 jpgs are better than an animated gif any day
<_ruiner_> especially when there will be 29 on a single page
<hcf> why 29?
10:30pm
<_ruiner_> cuz thats how many will be on this page
<hcf> why r they there tho?
<_ruiner_> cuz thats how I've got it organized
<hcf> r they frills or content?
<_ruiner_> frills
<hcf> dont do it
<_ruiner_> why not?
<_ruiner_> they're also for navigation....
<hcf> for navigation?!!!
<hcf> god, u suck
<_ruiner_> lol
<_ruiner_> here's the deal....
<_ruiner_> I'll have these applets in tables....
<hcf> if u wanna go the graphical route, why not use vrml?
<_ruiner_> they'll be passed the jpgs they're to use
<hcf> passed?
<_ruiner_> when the mouse is over it, it will fade from the first to the second jpg
<_ruiner_> passed the parameter via html
<hcf> sounds like something thats been done b4
<_ruiner_> that way they can all be the same....a one time download ....working 29 times
<_ruiner_> probably
<_ruiner_> but the thing is......~I~ haven't done it before.....so I should
<_ruiner_> the mouse listener is the scary part for me
<hcf> u havnt done vrml b4, so u should
10:40pm
<_ruiner_> might take a shot.....I don't see much need though
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10:50pm
<_ruiner_> hi water
<water> hi ruiner
<hcf> hoy water
<water> hey hcf
<_ruiner_> hey water.....what are your thoughts on applets?
<water> concerning what issue?
<_ruiner_> hmmm.....graphically enhanced site navigation
<water> don't care
<water> unless it advances the coming of tunes or arrow
<_ruiner_> hmmmmm......
<_ruiner_> wasn't there a lot of talk of java 2 being open source?
<water> some
<water> of course, java code is by definition shrouded source
<_ruiner_> that would be a big thing for tunes once you got going....consider all the people that would consider using tunes if they could still have icq, aol instant messenger, and other various apps
<water> "once you got it going"
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<water> "once you got it going" => i don't care
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<water> hey tril
<Tril> blah
<Tril> hello
11:00pm
<water> hey jdl
<jdl> Hey all
<_ruiner_> blah
<_ruiner_> bbl
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<jdl> Tril, thanks for your excellent response... damn, I was going to talk to him...
<water> jdl: Tril and Fare have summed up everything that i would like to say to you, unless their points haven't been fully made
<jdl> Tril: Anyway, I'll respond tomorrow.  I have some loose ends to finish, then a buttload of new documents to put on my site that I want to reference.
<Tril> now I'm done with zelda hacking for a while, I'll have more time to work on TUNES design and/or Review
<jdl> water: NP, Tril's letter was quite excellent
<water> ok
<jdl> abi, foldoc for bbl?
<abi> bbl may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=bbl
<jdl> bbl is be back later
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us310.javanet.com])
<jdl> I should have known...
<jdl> water: How's Arrow progress?
<water> i've been chilling out for a while, reading up on research and pondering the meanings of terms, ...
<water> lots of thinking in preparation for a new burst of writing
<jdl> terms?  As in definitions?
<water> words
<jdl> righto
<water> mappings between words and semantics, not between words and phrases
<jdl> Have you solved the problem of representing semantics in a comprehensive yet meaningful way
<jdl> (representing semantics in Arrow)
<water> meaningful?
<jdl> That to me seems to be the hardest problem you face.
<water> representing semantics?
<water> jdl: then you don't understand
<jdl> water: Well, for example, Prolog has semantic rules but it doesn't really comprehend.  CENTAUR has limited semantic understanding, but it seems very limited.
<water> prolog does not have semantic rules like arrow does
<water> or rather, arrow has no semantic rules
<Tril> hehe
<jdl> I was about to say that Prolog was a bad example  :)  But I think you understand what I meant...
<water> arrow is sub-structural to semantic assumptions
<jdl> go on
<water> it is the surjective mapping from the arrow construct to epistemic information
<water> it is represents epistemic structure
<jdl> suBjective?
<water> no
* jdl/#tunes gets out his dictionary :)
<water> the arrow system is all information
<jdl> I know THAT.
<water> if i may be so bold
<Tril> you may
<water> jdl: you don't understand yet
11:10pm
<water> the mapping is pre-supposed
<Tril> the universe will decide whether you should be slapped.
<jdl> "surjective" is not in my dictionary.   Define it, please.
<water> surjective mappings map to ALL elements of the co-domain set
<jdl> oh, okay.
<jdl> Now I look up "epistemic."  :)
<water> "set" is the wrong term, but it will do for now
<water> epistemics is the study of knowledge without facts
<water> no meaning, all structure
<water> ontology is the study of what is
<jdl> Hmmm... my dict says "of, relating to, or involving knowledge or the act of knowledge"
<water> i.e. what has meaning to an observer
<water> jdl: not precise enough
<jdl> water: Well, it's a college dictionary, what do you expect?  ;)
<water> epistemology contrasts with ontology
<water> jdl: not much, really
<jdl> water: Anyway, it's not enough to have a self-consistent world of facts.  That's useful, sure (see Prolog), but if I understand Arrow correctly, you need to relate Arrow concepts to human concepts.  How do you intend to do that?
<Tril> water: thanks for your pedagogy.
<water> self-consistent: bah
* jdl/#tunes knows that one.  :)
<Tril> (not kidding)
<jdl> whatever... the question still holds
<water> self-consistency is for the birds
<water> jdl: one word. ontologies
<water> ontologies are not Ontology, btw
<jdl> Yeah, yeah, I know.  Ontologies provide the conceptual framework with which to interpret an arrow world.  But ontologies are also represented in Arrow.  What is the ontology that allows us to understand ontologies?
<water> jdl: hehe. no
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1043.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> jdl: Ontology is the study
<jdl> Okay, maybe you've changed terms on me.
<water> jdl: ontologies are collections of epistemological structures
<water> hmm
<water> that's not a good way to put it.
<water> jdl: there are such things as ontologies in Prolog, for instance
<jdl> Really?  Never really studied Prolog in depth, actually.
<jdl> I just know how it works.
<jdl> (superficially)
<water> jdl: the notion of an ontology in Prolog is a collection of Prolog postulates and rules
<water> jdl: their elements are only subject to the constraints of Horn-clause logic
11:20pm
<water> jdl: i abstract the ontology notion from this common type of context
<jdl> water: okay, that makes plenty of sense.  But I thought in Arrow, ontologies were arrow graphs which described how to interpret other arrow graphs?  I.e., exposed their meaning?
<water> jdl: i'm getting to that
<water> jdl: my abstract ontologies are built from information atoms with no implicit semantics
<jdl> okau
<jdl> y
<water> jdl: i then port those abstract ontologies to the arrow construct
<jdl> yellow flag (port how?) but go on...
<water> so, there is the current ontology idea, my notion of abstract ontology, the arrow construct, the arrow construct's application to information atomicity, and finally use that idea to have ontologies
<water> port:
<jdl> umm... I don't want to confuse the discussion.  I'm willing to take that on faith for now.
<water> implement in terms of.  in other words, i may choose other ways to have information atoms
<water> the choice of the arrow is something i have quite well rationalized now
* jdl/#tunes wonders if any unbounded data structure could be rationalized fairly easily  ;)
<water> well, my concerns are rather obtuse when compared to the concerns of ordinary language designers
<jdl> Actually, I am interested in your rationalization of the Arrow structure.  But I don't want to get away from my main point: 
<jdl> What is the ontology of an ontology?
<water> ontologies are not unique per the subject matter
<jdl> (Arrow ontologies)
<water> ahh
<Tril> water: weren't you saying some ontologies are their own ontology
<water> you mean a canonical ontology for the arrow construct?
<Tril> not to change a subject.. go ahead and ignore me
<jdl> Tril: I remember him saying that once upon a time.  :)
<jdl> water: No, not exactly...  Here's a concrete example.
<water> tril: i don't remember saying it that way
<water> tril: what did you think i meant?
<jdl> water: It was one of our first discussions about Arrow, and we were discussing what the ontology of an ontology of an... was.
<jdl> (ad toiletum)
<water> oh wait
<water> i remember
<jdl> Back to the concrete example...
<water> ok
<jdl> Suppose I'm representing the concept of a phone call as an Arrow graph.
<water> k
11:30pm
<jdl> How is that concept of a "phone" represented?  (don't answer yet)
<jdl> I know that an ontology determines that, or at least tells us that what we're looking at means "phone."  (wait for it)
<jdl> But where does that ontology come from?  (almost there)
<jdl> My point is, it seems to me that there has to be some initial mapping of human concepts to Arrow representation.  And I don't see how that can be done in any way except by a human.  It would be part of the Arrow bootstrap.  So what are
<jdl> those initial concepts, and how do you know they are sufficient to build upon so that ANY concept can be represented without additional manual mapping from human to Arrow?
<jdl> (that's it.)
<water> wow
<water> alright
<water> to answer, i will describe my concept of the bootstrapping process
<jdl> I'm all ears.  Or fingers.  Or something.
<water> hmm
<hcf> jdl: eyes, for reading water's text
<jdl> hcf: Oh yeah, write.  
<water> i would first require a sort of canonical arrow ontology: an ontology describing the arrows of arrows
<jdl> :b
<water> i.e. graphs that apply to all arrows (i know, it's self-referencing to a great degree)
<jdl> water: I'm not entirely clear on this point, but I'll take it on faith for now.  Please continue...
<water> for instance, since there is a graph describing the relation between arrows whose heads reference other arrows
<water> i would need an ontology for describing how that works
<water> the graph would be extremely lazy, so to speak
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
<water> well, what we would end up with would be an ultimately-undecidable logic
<water> a logic so undecidable that quantification methods merge
<water> wait. stop.
* water/#tunes forgets to leave out the technical stuff.
* jdl/#tunes sighs in relief.  He was losing water there.
11:40pm
<water> yeah. i thought so.
<water> other ontologies would be implemented in terms of this original ontology
<jdl> water: But the original ontology just describes how arrows work, correct?
<water> later on, the original ontology could be expressed in terms of the ontologies it is used to constriuct
<water> jdl: right, without any meaning or identity
<jdl> hold on a sec then...
<water> k
<water> brb
<jdl> If the original ontology has no meaning, how can the ontologies constructed from it have any meaning?  (Or do they?)
<water> b
<jdl> Tril: This question, of how to encode human meaning in with a finite initial set to yeild the infinite range of human concepts, is why I took the easy route of natural language.  I'm not sure it's possible.
<jdl> water: Did you see my last question?
<water> jdl: the initial set is definitely NOT finite
<water> jdl: yes
<jdl> water: okay, skip it, I was just passing time.
<water> hmm. ok
<jdl> water: Don't skip my last question, answer that :), skip my message to Tril.
<water> oh
<water> meaning requires epistemology and facts
<water> jdl: facts are epistemological choices in context
<jdl> Still doesn't answer the question, though.
<Tril> jdl, meaning is defined by relationships between objects, and by behavior.
<water> jdl: i pick the universe where such-and-such arrow holds
<Tril> we're not so much encoding meaning as encoding relationships and behavior
<jdl> Tril: Arrows have no behavior, they're just representations.  They have relationships, but the meanings of those relationships is defined by the ontology.  The initial ontology imparts no meaning.  Where does the meaning come from?
<water> jdl: i restrict the possible world of possible information if there are facts
<jdl> water: I'm not sure how "picking the universe" enters into this.  What do you mean by that statement?
<Tril> jdl the meaning comes from the way ontologies are translated onto the computer hardware, and from what actually happens as you interact with the ontology as a result. (IMO)
<jdl> Tril: That's what I'm trying to pin down.  :)
11:50pm
<Tril> jdl: you can't pin it down, because allowing the user (and the metaprograms in the system) to dyamically change how ontologies are trnaslated, is the whole point of TUNES
<Tril> That's why we always answqer "yes" when someone asks "can TUNES do X?"
<water> sorry guys, i'm going away
<jdl> Tril: Not 'it,' Brian. :)
<water> i have friends to attend to
<Tril> by water
<water> good night
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!)
<jdl> water: Oh well, it was an interesting convo.  See ya.
<jdl> Tril: As I see it, (I'll put it in Prism terms because I understand those better) --
<jdl> A metamodel describes how a model is interpreted.  So a significant part of the metamodel is a description of how data structures represent human concepts.
<jdl> In order for the system to be reflective, as Brian wants Arrow to be and as you want Prism to be, the metamodel must be represented in terms of the system meta-metamodel (arrows for Brian, bit,map,stream for me.)
<Tril> that's part of it
<jdl> But that means we have to model human concepts.
<Tril> but the least important part, IMO
<jdl> (there's a bit more, hold on)
<Tril> you keep missing ...
<jdl> I see human concepts as an infinite set.  So the only recourse is to model some initial set of concepts that is sufficient in of itself to extrapolate all other concepts (to infinity)
<jdl> My question is:
<jdl> What is that initial set, and
<jdl> How do you know you've got the right one?
<jdl> (okay, I'm done.  Go ahead)
<Tril> I see your goal as impossible.  But it's also not necessary.  I see computers as having finite capabilities, so it is only necessary to represent the possible things computers can do, as well as a finite numbe of human concepts (maybe an infinite # of them, but only finite can fit on the disk)
<Tril> er..maybe there are infinite concepts, but you don't put them all on the disk
<jdl> Tril: I see it as impossible as well, which is why I chose natural language.  (Short-sighted, perhaps, but flexibility was more important to me than automatic metaprogramming)
<Tril> i think the question you meant to ask was, "How is the system able to allow itself to be rewritten every time a fundamentally new concept appears?"
<jdl> Naah, not really.
<Tril> because a constant rewriting is how a system survives and evolves over the long term
<jdl> Well, okay, really.  That was a concern.  (Oops, should have though before I typed)
<jdl> So what's the answer?
<Tril> and thus is best able to store the *current* relevant human concepts in the relevant computer-related form.
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0707
IRC log ended Wed Jul  7 00:00:01 1999