IRC log started Thu Jun  3 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0603
* Fare/#Tunes is back
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<Fare> gakuk!
<smkl> hello Fare
<Fare> how is your competition going?
<_ruiner_> gakuk!
<smkl> i've now had the polytechnique exams (math and physics) and i think i will pass
<smkl> tomorrow i'll have CS exam for university
<Fare> congrats!
06:40am
<Fare> smkl: and good luck!
<smkl> nothing is certain yet
06:50am
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<Fare> tcn: gakuk!
<Fare> tcn: rebooting the computer to test...
08:30am
<tcn> hey fare
* tcn/#tunes crosses his fingers
<tcn> brb afk
<Fare> looks like it works!
<tcn> sweet!
<tcn> gimme five :)
* Fare/#Tunes deep-sixes tcn!
* tcn/#tunes turns off the horrible opera playing on the radio in the other room
<Fare> ok, now for seriouser work
<Fare> how's the IDE driver going? can you read?
08:40am
<tcn> yup
<tcn> write should work, but I haven't tried it yet
<Fare> try on the second or so sectors of the harddisk: between first sector and first partition
<tcn> oh yeah, that's safe
<tcn> I also have a partition set aside for retro
<Fare> I have partitions ready, but meanwhile, I use them as either scratch or swap
<tcn> heh.. I wonder why I have a 10mb dos partition
<Fare> loadlin+umsdos debugging?
<Fare> I have that on all my computers
<Fare> (although it's rather 64MB than 10MB)
<tcn> nope
<tcn> I just needed extra room at one point
<tcn> I can delete most of this crap.. wordperfect, printshop.. :)
<tcn> we used this stuff 10 years ago
<tcn> hehe.. I have Cracker Jack on here still
<Fare> cracker jack? wassat?
<tcn> a cracker tool
<tcn> I wonder if any of these logins still work?
<Fare> to crack games?
<Fare> or BBSes?
<tcn> unices
<Fare> unices? ow
08:50am
<tcn> these people had stupid pw's.. hehe.. they mostly just used their names (in the gecos field)
<tcn> hey, I know one of these people :)
* Fare/#Tunes won't turn down people who use girl first names as their passwords...
<tcn> I wonder how the hell I cracked this one: j10l18w4
<Fare> don't ask *me*
<tcn> heh.. I figured out why mylinux failed: Not enough room on drive C to create a swapfile
<Fare> what's mylinux?
<tcn> mulinux
<tcn> it fits on one 1720K floppy
<tcn> with X on another :)
<Fare> oh :)
<tcn> ok, freed up that 10meg partition
<Fare> muretro will fit one sector, with retrox on another?
<tcn> haha
09:00am
<tcn> ok, time to work on IDE and floppy drivers
09:10am
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<tcn> howdy
<abi> hoy, tcn
<tcn> abi: forget howdy
<abi> tcn, I didn't have anything matching howdy
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<water> hi all
<iStormy> hi
<abi> hoy, iStormy
<tcn> hey brian
<water> is there a discussion now?
<iStormy> no
<water> does anyone have something on their minds?
<iStormy> i need to learn forth
<tcn> sure, i'm wondering what to do next with retro
<tcn> iStormy: you can find some tutorials on www.forth.org
<tcn> hang on, I can /dcc you a decent tutorial
<water> last night, i was discussing some changes to the web site with hcf and beholder
<water> istormy: you have an interpreter and some docs?
<iStormy> water: not yet
<water> yes, check out forth.org
<water> there's also GNU forth
* water/#tunes also has Forth for the Apple ][ on his emulator.
<iStormy> thanks
<tcn> that's one of the better tutorials
<tcn> I found it buried in a large file on forth.org
<tcn> for an interpreter, I'd recommend PFE
<water> anyway, what's your problem with retro?
<tcn> choosing what to do next :)
09:30am
<water> i have to admit that i'm on the opposite side of that argument: doing less with retro (for tunes) and more for concepts.
<tcn> hard disk stuff, persistent storage... better multitasking support, display multiplexing (VC's)... better memory management..
<water> and doing all of that in C and ASM, yes?
<tcn> well, I respect your opinion (and thanks for not saying it all the time :)
<tcn> Forth and ASM
<smkl> hrrmm. my tank game's memory performance suxx
<water> it's ok.  it just seems that coding more for the LLL means more work later on in the HLL.
<tcn> I think the experience is worthwhile, though.
<water> well, forth is much better than C, anyway.
<tcn> yeah.. imagine where I'd be if I was writing a C compiler in ASM :)
<water> tank game?
<smkl> yeah, scorched earth clone. i'm writing games because i don't have time to make anything more intelligent
<tcn> a networked Scorch should be popular
<smkl> well, mine is networked. it will be released soon
<tcn> So, who remembers ARTILL.BAS ?
<water> not i
<tcn> think: mid-80's
09:40am
<tcn> it was scorch's direct ancestor
<water> at that time, i had an actual apple ][e.
<tcn> oh, apples beat PC's hands down :)
<water> i had a lot of basic games, but i haven't heard of that one.
<tcn> this was an IBM or microsoft thing, distributed with DOS.. probably derived from something else before that..
<water> yes, it had a nice design. i was messing with it by the time i was 8 years old.
<tcn> brb
<water> ok
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<tcn> ok, I decided what to do with retro: Work on the disk drivers, but in the meantime develop the memory management/peristent storage/GC on paper
<Fare> water: that was a //e, not a ][e
<water> sure. ok.
<tcn> what was the IIgs? 6502 or something bigger?
<water> (that's not what the computer said).
<water> 65c02 ?
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> abi, what?
<tcn> I guess the gs was the last of the II line
<water> sort of. there was an apple III (which predated the gs actually)
<water> oh, fare.  there's something i'd like to discuss
09:50am
<water> actually, a few things.
<water> are you listening, fare?
<tcn> hehe
>>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250096.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 928432557 818572 from #tunes
<tcn> gotta go
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<water> bye
<water> fare?
<abi> i think fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/
<water> ok
<water> retro?
<abi> retro is probably at http://bespin.cx/~tcn/retro.html
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<water> hi tcn
10:00am
<tcn> hehe.. that was one of abi's rare *useful* replies
<tcn> about fare
<water> oh yes.
<tcn> yeah, you'll notice he drifts in and out of the channel
<water> fare's not responding at all
* water/#tunes slaps Fare around a bit with a large trout
<tcn> oh well, what's on your mind? anything I can answer?
<water> i'm considering moving the glossary into Wiki and making it a part of "review" on the site.
<water> each definition would be a node.
<water> it would be a "review of computing concepts" of sorts.  have you seen the Principia Cybernetica site?
<tcn> no.. where's it at?
<water> just a second...
<tcn> Wiki could help us manage all those web pages, yeah.
<water> http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be
<water> i just thought that if we broke down our terms into html nodes, they would be simpler to organize, reference, and maintain.
<water> sort of an object-oriented format.
<water> wiki would allow annotations and such.
<water> i've already volunteered for the authoring and management.
<water> although i've never used wiki.  which reminds me to look up the docs and tutorial.
<tcn> you should try it.. see if it's really what you want
<tcn> I think you could find something a little better than Wiki
<water> it might be useful for teaching some of the concepts that i've used in the paper, but that most Tunesers don't understand.
10:10am
<tcn> go for it
<water> thanks.
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<smkl> tcn: do you have time to test my game today?
<smkl> hello Manoj
<Manoj> hi folks
<water> i'll post a proposal to the list and write up a few definitions today.
<water> hi manoj
<tcn> hey manoj
<tcn> smkl: sure
<tcn> is it in ML?
<smkl> yeah
<smkl> i had problems with random number generation, but now it should work
<tcn> wow, that was tiny :)
<smkl> make a dir first
<smkl> it's just the gfx lib (but the game src is tiny too)
<tcn> I don't have libXext
<smkl> hmm
<smkl> try changing /usr/X11 to /usr/X11R6
<smkl>  /usr/X11 doesn't exist in some systems for some reason
<tcn> what linux distro do you have?
<smkl> some old slackware
<smkl> what depth are you running? i haven't tested it at all in 24 bit
<tcn> 16 bit
10:20am
<smkl> that is probably only depth it works in :/
<tcn> what's a jakautuva?
<tcn> miina = mine
<smkl> you know MIRV in scorch?
<tcn> ahh
<tcn> hey, you should leave all the weapon names in finnish :)
<smkl> it's on TODO. actually i have only bombs implemented
<tcn> anyway, I'm having some trouble.. do I need to do anything before 'make' (for xtank)
<tcn> (ogame compiled successsfully)
<smkl> perhaps "touch depend ; make dep"
<smkl> you need to make install ogame
<tcn> oh
<tcn> crap! now it can't find List.find
<tcn> xtank.ml line 15
<smkl> hmm. what version of ocaml do you have?
<tcn> 2.01
<tcn> it's probably what came with debian 2.1
<smkl> i have 2.02. but List.find should be in 2.01 i think
10:30am
<smkl> try "ocaml" and then "module Help = List;;"
<tcn> I just looked at list.mli. find ain't in there.
<smkl> From changes: "Module List: added find, filter, partition."
<tcn> yup
<tcn> I'll patch it
<tcn> actually.. it takes a few hours to compile..
<smkl> i can send you list.ml and list.mli
-:- Manoj [srivasta@tiamat.ametro.net] has left #tunes []
<tcn> ok
<tcn> ok, how to compile it?
<smkl> hmm. try adding it to OBJECTS in xtank Makefile
<smkl> or OOBJECTS
<tcn> I think I can just compile it in /usr/local/lib/ocaml
<smkl> it wont work because it needs to be inside lib files
<tcn> done
<smkl> does it work now?
<tcn> Help showed it there.
<tcn> xtank.ml line 117, 'eng' unknown :)
<tcn> :(
<tcn> I guess I should just upgrade ocaml
<smkl> hrrmph
<smkl> bah. i sended you an old version
<tcn> oops
10:40am
<iStormy> if you get it working with 2.0.1 i'll try it
<tcn> xtank.ml line 279 'ignore' unbound
<smkl> another 2.02 dependency :/
<tcn> we'll do this later, then
<tcn> i'm building 2.02 now
<tcn> hehe..
<tcn> On the other hand, Forth's extensibility
<tcn> allows "full-featured" systems to consume over 100K bytes
<tcn> and provide comprehensive window-based programming
<tcn> environments.
<tcn> I dunno.. 100k is kinda bloated ;)
10:50am
<water> cool.
<tcn> THAT'S the idea behind retro :)
<water> ok.
<water> which is of course the full advantage of having an explorative programming system based on re-write rules.
<water> so, what do you have so far?  (where can i get the current source?)
<tcn> got CVS?
<water> no.
<tcn> bzip2?
<abi> hmmm... bzip2 is http://www.muraroa.demon.co.uk/
<tcn> http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro.html#files
<water> is bzip2 available for dos?
<water> ok
<tcn> get the .tar.bz2 snapshot
<tcn> do you have tar for DOS?
<water> of course.
<water> i've just never found bzip2 for dos.
<tcn> was it on the bzip2 www site?
<water> hold on.. i'm getting the page now.
<tcn> i can make a zip if you need it
11:00am
<tcn> there, I updated the zip
<water> ok. the site has bzip2 for dos.  i'm getting it now.
<water> ok, now i'm getting the archive
11:10am
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<water> hi happy
<tcn> gotta go..
<water> ok.
11:30am
<tcn> later brian, later happy
<water> i'll check out that retro code
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<HappyFace> .
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11:40am
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* water/#tunes whistles a tune...
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 18 hrs 55 min 57 secs
<smkl> hello Tril
<Tril> hi 
<abi> what's up, Tril
<Tril> I dunno. Abi, what's up?
<Tril> ABI UP?
<abi> tril: bugger all, i dunno
12:50pm
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<Beholder> Hello all
<iStormy> hi
<abi> hi, iStormy
* iStormy/#Tunes bonks abi.
01:10pm
<Beholder> Is: In all the time I've been in this channel, I don't think i've ever seen you reply ;)
<iStormy> i'm not often here right when someone talks.
<iStormy> i sit here all day, and read the scrollback every few hours
<Beholder> Ahh, are you in the mailing list also?
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<iStormy> yup, seen all of 2 posts in 6 months
<chuckie> hey fare, how's it goin?
<Beholder> is:  Heheh... actually I don't think I've been with Tunes for 6 whole months yet! :)
<chuckie> oh, i have a feeling he's not around, with a idle time of over 3 hours :)
<iStormy> hmm, that was weird
<iStormy> i think my /away is b roken
<iStormy> did yall see this:      iStormy hmm, that was weirdis AFK (cutting grass).
<iStormy> or did it look normal to you?
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<Beholder> Didn't see it at all?
<iStormy> even stranger
-:- SignOff Wompa: #TUNES (Leaving)
* iStormy/#Tunes is AFK (cutting grass).
<Beholder> Now I saw it
<Tril> hi beholder
<Tril> chuckie: Fare isn't really here..
<Beholder> Hey Tril, how are ya?
<Tril> good. only one homework assignment left! And I'm doing it.
<chuckie> i got a hint of that after i saw the idle time :)
<chuckie> thanks
<Tril> if he shows up, he'll write "Fare is back"
<chuckie> cool
<Beholder> What school do you go to Tril?
<chuckie> thanks again
<Tril> I go to wwu.edu, specifically the alternative education college inside the university
01:20pm
<Tril> which lets me have control over my own studies
<chuckie> hey, that sounds cool.  
<Tril> http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~fhc/
<chuckie> Wish i had gotten to go to a place like that.
<chuckie> is it just me, or is guile-gtk really screwed up?
<Beholder> Ouch... I'm pinging 2:36 on EffNet... 
>>> chuckie [sysadm@38.212.233.3] requested PING 928444535 from #tunes
<Tril> chuckie dunno, what version?
<chuckie> i've tried a older version, and the latest version... but when i actually try to attach a procedure with gtk-signal-connect, and in the procedure, disconnect and reconnect, in order to pass my data through recursion, it executes it without waiting
<chuckie> for a button to be hit.  (makeing a infinate loop).  I can't seem to figure how to pass data around while useing it.
<Tril> can't help ya, i don't have experience gtk programming
<chuckie> ok.  I apreciate the try
>>> Beholder [beholder@ppp-065.m4-1.osh.ican.net] requested PING 31704393 from TUNES
<Tril> just curious, does "latest version" mean you got it from CVS?
<chuckie> yep.  I also tried some other versions... however i have a feeling that this is a design problem, and not just a minor bug.
<Tril> guile-gtk is the guile bindings for gtk, right?
<chuckie> correct
01:30pm
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<chuckie> but i'm guessing that the gtk guys didn't have recursion in mind when they designed it, and therefore weren't expecting me to try to recurse in the middle of a "signal"
<Tril> i recommend you post to a mailing list, if you have read the appropriate docs.
<Tril> hey bineng
<binEng> hi
<Beholder> Hey bin
<Tril> now you and beholder are both here, I have a question: Someone once asked why the project you were both doing for a new tunes web layout never got finished
<Tril> is it because of Fare's requirements for metalayout, and not underestanding exactly what was involved?
<Tril> or just you neither have any time..
<Beholder> Tril:  Every idea was rejected... just ran out of ideas....
<Tril> rejected? I don't remember that..
<Tril> I recall that most people liked it.
<Tril> bineng's proposed design, that is
<binEng> I didn't see much enthusiasm, and I wasn't really up to the task of *writing* the site, I was just designing
<Tril> the one we put in ~bineng??
<Tril> it's not so much writing a site, but just modifying the old one to look like your idea, and making a script to do the modification automatically.
<Beholder> Hmm... all I heard was critisim about how to should be done differently, or how terrible it looks in (name the browser)... so I decided there could be no happy medium :)
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<Beholder> But if people were ok with it, then it should be continued...
<Tril> the idea is to store the page in a layout-indepednet format (text, or in a database), then use your layout as the example, and if people don't like it we'll add more possibilities, later.
<binEng> Automation is not my cup of tea
<Tril> re nefarious
<binEng> But I *was* intending to get back to it sometime... had just other things to attend to
<hcf> Tril: so is this system actually being constructed?
<Beholder> hey hcf
<Tril> hcf: Not yet, we're talking about it.
<hcf> hoy Beholder
<Tril> hcf: just a chat..
<hcf> always just talking...
<Tril> include yourself in that accusation
<hcf> i do
<Tril> but i'm mostly guilty, regarding the web pages at least
<Tril> we need a good definition of "object"
<Tril> (re my post to unios)
<Beholder> :)  hcf, Brian and I were discussing that last night
<Tril> i'll go look at logs
<hcf> Tril: hav u looked at all the other simular meta-html-templated-preprocessed systems, and found them not good?
01:40pm
<Tril> crap water is duplicating dufrp's efforts which he just gave up on
<Beholder> Hmm... we should find a technology and stick to it for the purpose of automation... Maybe PHP3 and some SQL database in Linux?
* chuckie/#tunes chuckles
<Tril> hcf: ALL? Did you say "all"? argh.
<Tril> hcf: Actually, I am pretty much set on using PHP3 with PostgreSQL but it takes significant time to convert the page, which I might do this summer.
<hcf> Tril: 'all' isnt that bad when 'look' is defined lightly ;)
<chuckie> Tril: so your saying that the group has digressed from just talking about tunes, to just talking about the web page, which means that they are talking about talking about tunes?
<Tril> it's like the Review project. look at ALL languages and OSes and consider their features and relevance to the TUNES project.
<chuckie> :)
<Tril> chuckie, nah.  We stopped talking about tunes, and started programming some experiments for our ideas.  The web page is separate
<hcf> Tril: we dont need to do a site automation review
<chuckie> hey that's cool
<Tril> if php3/sql is no good we'll look at something else
<Tril> i dunno how to integrate sql with CVS, though
<Tril> do databases have a revision control for records?
<hcf> does qz use php3/sql or just php3?
<chuckie> i'm curious, how'd you pick postgres over mysql?
<Tril> just php3, i think
<hcf> does anyone have any info on Birkas Mate's project mu?
<Tril> chuckie I used Debian's Free Software Guidelines, i.e. postgres is in main, but mysql and msql are in non-free.
<Beholder> Chuck:  Have you used either one?
<Tril> hcf, I discussed it with him in email a while ago
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup43-2-18.swipnet.se])
<chuckie> yes, i've used postgres and mysql.
<hcf> Tril: know of a web page for it?
<chuckie> i haven't used them extensively
<Tril> chuckie, but I haven't used either of them. I'll just try postgres first.
<Beholder> chuck:  which one is better? (if it's relevent)
<chuckie> (i.e. i just developed a bit for postgres, and screwed around with mysql, they never got deployed)
<hcf> Tril: r the ppl on the mlist aware of the situation?
<hcf> Tril: perhaps u could ask for assistence
<chuckie> well i stopped using postgres because mysql is supposed to have a really good reliability to it.  it's not as featurefull as postgres, but works stably for what it does
<Tril> hcf: I don't think it has a web page, and I don't remember the details of his project, I probably mix it up with some other. I'll check my mail archive when i go home
<hcf> Tril: thx
<chuckie> postgres is a nightmare from a source code perspective, and i wasn't confidant that it would keep my data around
<chuckie> however if your running a backup for a occasionally changed web page  you should be fine
<chuckie> postgres has the advantaged of user definable types, and other cool stuff.
01:50pm
-:- binEng [bineng@dialup80-1-32.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes
<Tril> hcf hmmm
<hcf> wb binEng
<binEng> tnx :p
<Beholder> I thought the database would just be used to store data, isn't the programming functionality in PHP3?
<Tril> sort of.
<Tril> php3 I believe just lets you embed SQL language.
<Tril> i'm not sure how much SQL programming is normally done when using php3.
<iStormy> look on espn right now and you'll see a golf course in my town
<Beholder> I think you embed it into your html (the queries) and it produces the page by pulling data from the database
<Tril> yep, that's right
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ....)
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Beholder> Tril:  My PostGre keeps crapping out on me, have you gotten it working yet?
02:00pm
<Tril> it's running on bespin right now..
<Fare> Gakuk!
<Tril> Hi Fare.
<Tril> Beh: Debian is very good about having things work right after you install them :)
<Beholder> Tril:  I'm gonna have to get that one
<Tril> what, debian?
<Beholder> Tril:  Yes
<Tril> do it
<Beholder> Tril:  Red Hat's got some strange problems... 
<binEng> Tril: just wondering, how stable is the mail-forwarding from bespin? Can I rely on that it remains for the time to come?
<Tril> Bin: are you asking if bespin will stay up?
<Tril> nobody is going to go in and delete your .forward..
<binEng> ok. I was thinking about wether or not I should give out that address
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<Beholder> I haven't used the beholder@unios.dhs.org address yet :)  I should
<chuckie> hey fare
<Fare> chuckie: hi
<chuckie> how's it goin?
<Tril> there is no forseeable reason bespin would go down in the future, but anything can happen, and I don't guarantee it will stay up since it's a free service
<Fare> chuckie: do we know each other?
<chuckie> << corey
<binEng> Tril: ok
<Tril> Beholder: Then how do you know it works? :)
<chuckie> (that's a yes :)
<Beholder> Tril:  I don't! :)  But I know you set things up well enough :)
<Tril> telnet localhost 25
<Tril> EXPN <beholder@unios.dhs.org>
<Tril> 250 Pat Wendorf <beholder@ican.net>
<Tril> should work :)
<Fare> corey!!!
<Fare> what's up?
<chuckie> well my most recent thing i've been up to is screwing around with is guile-gtk.
<chuckie> -is
<chuckie> of course i've been up to other things too
<chuckie> how about you?
-:- ^Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm4-2.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes
<^Myrmidon> Howdy.
<Tril> yo.
<Tril> do you know _QZ?
<abi> it has been said that _QZ is the creator of BRiX, and webmaster of http://www.qzx.com
02:10pm
<Fare> hum, reading a bit, pushing back writing a lot
<^Myrmidon> Not personally.
<Tril> myrmidon, ok he uses the same ISP as you
<Fare> abi: good girl
<abi> :)
<^Myrmidon> Yeah, I know. :)(
<Fare> is that a large nose and a sad face, or a happy face with a big double chin?
* Beholder/#tunes uses lots of emoticons, but has never seen that one :)
<^Myrmidon> Actually, it was a typographical mistake.
<Tril> maybe a Pac man mouth?
<hcf> :)(( <-- happy w/ double chin, :)( happy w/ single chin
<Beholder> I saw it as a face with the teeth bared... hmm... somone doesn't like QZ :)
<chuckie> fare: you ever goin to get a chance to come by america?
<Fare> hum, chances are dwindling
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (doing homework) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<chuckie> bummer
<Fare> unless I publish a paper in an american conference...
<chuckie> does saying "good girl" to abi reinforce when she just did, or is it just for show?
<chuckie> when=what
<Fare> abi: what do you think?
<abi> fare: bugger all, i dunno
02:20pm
<hcf> its simply: good girl => <REPLY> :)
<chuckie> gotcha
<Fare> abi: good girl
<abi> :)
<Fare> abi: bad girl
<chuckie> abi: indifernt girl
<hcf> abi: bad girl
<abi> spank me hcf
<Beholder> abi: Die die die
<chuckie> hah
<chuckie> i know that this means that someone had *way* too much time on their hands... but i like this :)
<Beholder> Fare:  What is abi?  What kind of bot I mean?
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-1.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hola
<Beholder> Hey Brian :)
<water> beh: my new mail account isn't on the list yet, so i haven't posted
<hcf> Beholder: infobot
<Beholder> wat: Understood, no big deal
<water> i'm subscribing now
<water> have you had any new ideas, by the way?
<water> ok
<Beholder> wat: Well, not about the definitions, but Trill sounds like he's working on getting the page automation up and working
<Fare> abi: what kind of girl are you?
<abi> i don't know, fare
<Fare> abi: abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut
<Fare> crack?
<abi> well, crack is the only thing that spreads faster than Java
<Fare> thank god, abi is not java addict!
<water> beh: ok
02:30pm
<water> that's a very strange bot!
<chuckie> gaklosmontic?
<Beholder> wat: If you want a permanant e-mail, I think Tril can give you an @Tunes.org 
<water> abi: tunes?
<abi> tunes is in my head or a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system or to programming languages what the internet is to computer networks
<chuckie> abi: gaklosmontic?
<abi> wish i knew, chuckie
<water> beh: ok.
<Fare> chuckie: feel free to add a proper definition...
<water> hmm.. an interesting metaphor
<Beholder> abi: UniOS?
<abi> it has been said that UniOS is at http://unios.dhs.org
<chuckie> a gaklosmontic is a flurivostuginuous
<chuckie> a flurivostuginuous is a gaklosmontic, duh.
<chuckie> gaklosmontic?
<abi> gaklosmontic is probably a flurivostuginuous
<chuckie> flurivostuginuous?
<abi> i guess flurivostuginuous is a gaklosmontic, duh.
<chuckie> i think fare's better a programming her personality wize though
<chuckie> a=at
<water> should i tell abi that: Arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should?
<water> i think that this will work.
<Fare> water: could you please either formalize homo-iconic or drop the claim? (preferrably the former)
<binEng> :)
<water> formalize it?  well, it's just a system with a standard abstraction that links together all other system abstractions.  does that work?
<Beholder> where does the term homo-iconic come from?
<Fare> no
<water> homo = same, icon = symbol
<water> fare: why not?
<Fare> because that's what "OO" people claimed they were doing, and look at the result!
<water> ok.  how could i distinguish my idea?
<binEng> IMO we're not finished with OO yet...
<binEng> But don't take me on my word until I actually accomplish something :)
02:40pm
<iStormy> abi, stats?
<abi> Since Thu May 27 22:09:20 1999, there have been 390 modifications and 212 questions.  I have been awake for 6 days, 16 hours, 30 minutes, 44 seconds this session, and currently reference 1543 factoids.
<Fare> water: by giving a formal criterion for what is a system with more than "one" abstraction
<water> ok, how about "constructive" information system?
<Fare> is untyped lambda-calculus "homo-iconic"? what about typed lambda-calculus?
<water> but lambda-calc's are _finite_, aren't they?  so, they can't make first-order models (lambda's) of everything.
<Fare> uh?
<Fare> how that lam-cal is finite?
<Fare> it has got a finite description in any universal system
* ^Myrmidon/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
<Fare> but there are infinitely many different lambda-terms, if that's what you mean
<water> it represents algorithms: finite sequences of actions. that's why it's used to formalize computability.
<Fare> can be used to formalize infinite stuff, too
<hcf> water: abi has factoids for 'arrow' and 'homo-iconic' now, plz check em by /msg abi arrow? and correct by /msg abi no, arrow is ...
<Fare> like, infinite lists, sets, etc
<water> fare: how?
<water> arrow?
<abi> i think arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should.
<binEng> abi: homo-iconic?
<abi> homo-iconic is, like, homo = same, icon = symbol. a system with a standard abstraction that links together all other system abstractions
<Fare> see Haskell and lazy evaluation (or explicit delays a la Scheme) for infinite data structures
<water> wait a second. those ideas aren't done yet.
<Fare> see implementation of infinite sets with a recognizer function, too
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 33 min 6 secs
<water> sure, it can _implement_ them, but can a lambda construct an infinite set?
<water> hey tril.  i've got an idea for you.
<Tril> Anyone happen to be familiar with using mmap() unix function??
<Fare> what do you mean by "construct an infinite set"???
<Tril> what, water
<Fare> Tril: somehow
<Fare> Tril: what about it?
<water> tril: hold on a minute. i'm discussing lambda calc with fare
<Tril> Fare: Why do I get segfault
<Tril> how about a half an hour, I'll go home and come back then
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<Fare> who's in to write a scheme compiler?
<ProGuy> A scheme compiler?
<abi> it has been said that a scheme compiler is almost as easy to write as a forth compiler
02:50pm
<water> fare: well, you can't represent certain human-level actions that computers can't do.
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu])
-:- Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ
<^Myrmidon> Welcome back.
03:00pm
<chuckie> bye everyone
<^Myrmidon> Bye.
<water> bye chuck
-:- SignOff chuckie: #TUNES (Leaving)
03:10pm
-:- SignOff ProGuy: #TUNES (Read error to ProGuy[p442-030.ppp.get2net.dk]: EOF from client)
-:- ZeuS [user6530@dialup08.canad.ro] has joined #Tunes
<ZeuS> does anyone have a Vortex soudcard?
<water> hi zeus
<water> not me
<ZeuS> hi
<abi> hey, ZeuS
<ZeuS> do you know how can i cofig one?
<water> sorry, no.
<ZeuS> do you know where i could find the full version of OSS ?
<water> what's OSS?
<ZeuS> open sound
<^Myrmidon> ZeuS: that'd be piracy.
<^Myrmidon> :(
<ZeuS> really?
* iStormy/#Tunes wonders if (no warez) will fit in the crowded topic.
03:20pm
<ZeuS> tell me how can i configure my sound card, Myrmidon!
<hcf> ZeuS: have you tried asking #linpeople ?
<ZeuS> yes
<iStormy> try any of a thousand linux web pages with links to the sound faq
<ZeuS> done
<ZeuS> even the last sndconfig does not support it
<ZeuS> (Vortex 2 is already on the market)
<iStormy> then you're out of luck to my knowledge.
<ZeuS> SuSe is not for free, right?
<iStormy> it's free
<iStormy> but it won't install over a modem
-:- SignOff ZeuS: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ZeuS[dialup08.canad.ro])
<Fare> grrr!
03:30pm
* Fare/#Tunes ISP has let me down again
<water> fare: what?
<Fare> damn cable!
<Fare> cable is not for the faint of heart, you know!
* water/#tunes summons some demons to help Fare damn the cable.
<Fare> hum. How can I do some tabbing in a HTML document?
<water> </tab> :)
<Fare> uh?
<Fare> I mean, put space between left margin and text...
<water> oh.
<iStormy> blockquote will indent, but it changes the font sometimes
<iStormy> most people use tables
03:40pm
<Beholder>  gotta go now, some work to do, bye all :)
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-065.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes []
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250128.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
03:50pm
<tcn> hey there, everyone!
<water> hey
<binEng> hi
<tcn> lively conversation?
<water> i'm with bineng on a different channel.  we should move back to tunes, though.
<binEng> here we are
<water> i was going to explain "Crosscutting of ontologies"
<water> ok. i just sent bineng an AOP paper by Xerox.
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-1.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<iStormy> i think, therefore i exist.
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-1.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> that's all i have to say on the subject
<binEng> hey water, transfer incomplete
<water> darn it, my connection reset!
<water> 99% complete,too!
<water> ok. i'll send again.
<tcn> murphy's law says that transfers are most likely to fail when they're almost done
<Fare> water: you can safely try to explain here
<water> ok.
<binEng> heh
<tcn> hmm, i wonder if I still have squeak
<water> AOP considers an issue in programming to "cross-cut" the basic functionality of an implementation if it drastically complicates the code while performing no additional purpose.
<Fare> tcn: the shipwreck survivor law says that you're most likely to strongly notice failures and complain about them when they happen in unpleasing circumstances that suggest Murphy's law
<water> hey, the send worked!
<binEng> amazing
<binEng> but from my POV the *recieve* worked ;)
<water> btw, fare, i just realized that almost all of the sources for my paper are in one directory.  should i upload? if so, where to?
<binEng> Let's take it slow here, water, did you really say AOP _wants_ to complicate matters?
04:00pm
<Fare> water: uh? paper?
<water> no, it identifies issues that already complicate code and factors them into separate languages, so that aspect programming then occurs in two or more separate simpler source files which are 'weaved' into a combined file in the target language..
<Fare> make a tarball, and put it on your web page.
<water> fare: ok.
<Fare> don't you have one as http://tunes.org/~water ?
<water> not yet.
<tcn> Fare: would you say incremental GC is more efficient than concurrent GC?
<Fare> depends on what you call efficient
<water> bineng: does that make sense?
<tcn> Fare: is it a size-speed tradeoff?
<Fare> one could argue that incremental GC is a particular kind of concurrent GC, where the lock mechanism and scheduler have been mixed with the actual GC
<binEng> water: why would that improve the matter?
<Fare> it's rather a usual speed vs usual latency vs worst-case speed vs worst-case latency kind of multiple-aspect tradeoff
<Fare> s/usual/expected/g
<tcn> hehe
<Fare> also, incremental is hairy w/ shared-memory multiprocessors
<Fare> (so is real concurrent GC in general)
<tcn> what about distributed processors?
<water> well, if the logic behind whether or not to migrate an object over a network is simple, but requires code at every message declaration for every class, then factoring that out results in smaller code, for one.
<Fare> it gets worse as things are distributed
<binEng> separate _languages_?
<Fare> synchronization is costly in terms of space, time, latency, speed, warranties, etc
<water> it also centralizes the logic to an aspect declaration for a class, so that it's simpler to view that logic and modify it as necessary.
<tcn> ok. I'll try designing my own GC before I try implementing a certain kind of GC
<Fare> I know people who've been doing distributed GC (shapiro's team)
<tcn> Fare: any pointers?
<tcn> shapiro.. is he the guy doing rscheme?
<Fare> the usual Review/Languages.html#GC
<Fare> www-sor.inria.fr for Marc Shapiro's team
<water> bineng: yes, a core language (perhaps stripped of APIs and language operators that address a chosen aspect, and one or more aspect languages that declare the appropriate relationships.
<water> oops. forgot to close my parenthesis.
<Fare> no, RScheme is by Kolby, originally under Wilson's guidance
<Fare> oops
<Fare> abi: RScheme
<abi> somebody said RScheme was by Kolby, originally under Wilson's guidance
<Fare> shit
<water> abi: RScheme?
<abi> RScheme is probably by Kolby, originally under Wilson's guidance
<tcn> oops :)
<binEng> ) <-- Balancing the uiverse
04:10pm
<Fare> no, RScheme is by Donovan Kolby, originally under Prof Wilson's guidance. It's at http://www.RScheme.org
<water> does it make some sense?
<binEng> maybe. Did you say what it was that was filtered out?
<tcn> ok, how about memory management.. Say I use a heap of free blocks, and a binary-tree of used blocks.
<Fare> binEng: happily, your blather is not the Universe ;-)
<Fare>                                                        ^--- disbalancing the universe
<binEng> Yeah? Well guess again, 'cause smileys don't affect the universe ;)
<water> oh. it's usually any code in the original text (not cleanly removable without aspects) that is not part of the software's function (just as the function of an image processor is to provide image-processing logic, not to minimize its memory footprint).
<Fare> RScheme also has nice documentation about its internals, about real-time or distributed GC, etc
<water> abi: aspect?
<abi> water: i don't know
<binEng> uh oh
<water> aop?
<abi> aop is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/
<water> ah! there it is!
<Fare> tcn: best memory management makes a difference between small and large objects
<Fare> small: size << pagesize ; large: size >> pagesize
<tcn> right
<Fare> also, there are cases about separating pure vs impure data, linear vs multilinear data, etc
<Fare> [linear is a "pointed-to once", whereas multilinear is a "pointed-to many times"]
<water> aop also relates to meta-object composition.
<binEng> I'm not surprised
<Fare> I haven't seen any serious paper on meta-object composition
<water> i've got a few from ecoop'97 and '98
<Fare> lots of crap about this "holy-grail" of "reflective programming"
<Fare> but not a single good paper that I know of
<water> well, it's not that serious.
<Fare> it doesn't surprise me
<Fare> for meta-objects are precisely about de-composition, NOT composition.
<water> they do discuss an implementation of a smalltalk process-management environment for a factory.
<water> it definitely composes meta-objects, albeit via a hack.
<water> have you heard of the relation between monads and aspects?
<binEng> me?
<abi> hmmm... binEng is :)
04:20pm
<binEng> abi: I am not formally involved in TUNES.
<abi> ...but bineng is :)...
<binEng> abi: No, I am not formally involved in TUNES.
<abi> okay, binEng.
<binEng> me?
<abi> you are not formally involved in TUNES.
<water> me?
<binEng> right, but now I asked water.
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: http://www.tunes.org/~nef/irc/topics.html
<tcn> 1. abi
<Tril> /back
<water> hey tril
<Tril> uhh hi
<water> we're discussing aspects.
<Tril> I'm not here to discuss tunes until after I finish my hw
<Tril> so if anyone can help, that would speed it up
<water> oh. ok.
<Fare> Tril!
<Fare> Tril: what hw?
<iStormy> has anyone ever managed to get rxvt to include ~ in words that you can highlight with a double-click?
<Tril> Fare: I need to write a program using shared memory between 2 processes.  I'm using mmap(), but it's not working.
<Fare> ippelstein can!
<hcf> Fare: take a look at current topic #2
<Fare> iS: use Eterm ;->
<iStormy> too slow
<Fare> Tril: uh? mmap is if you have a file
<Fare> for shared memory segments, try SYSV IPC instead
<Tril> Fare: yup. I have to create a file and then share it between two procseses.
<Fare> ok. I hate SYSV IPC, anyway
<Fare> so where's the problem?
<tcn> hcf: cool
<binEng> <-- Leaving
<Fare> you agree on a filename, open the file on both sides, w/o stringent locking
<tcn> bye
<water> bye, bin
<Fare> then you mmap() with right options and keep the return address
<binEng> bye
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> Tril: wassa prob?
<Tril> hold on I'm trying to reproduce it again.
<water> homo-iconic
<abi> homo-iconic is a system that relates all of its abstractions to a common abstraction. or built from homo (same) icons (symbols or constructs).
<Fare> Tril: forgot MAP_SHARED?
<water> abi: you are a good bot.
<abi> thanks water :)
<Fare> abi: bad girl!
<abi> spank me Fare
* Fare/#Tunes spanks abi
<water> whoa!
<tcn> elton john is a homo-icon
<water> i didn't need to know about that!
<hcf> michael jackson is too
<Tril> Fare: I think it's a permissions problem
* Fare/#Tunes is rather hetero- than homo-
<Tril> Why does mmap only support 700, 400, 200, 100, 70, 40, 20, 10, 7, 4, 2, and 1 octal permissions, instea of the full range?
<Fare> Tril: chmod? or PROT_ flags?
<Tril> PROT
<Tril> I want read and write, so I guess I need execute, too?
<Fare> don't use 700 stuff; only PROT_ things
<Tril> Are they supposed to work ORed together?
<Tril> I'm using PROT, I am referring to the octal numbers represented by the PROTs.
04:30pm
<Fare> mmap(buf,sz, PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED, fd, ofs)
<Tril> I'm talking about S_ flags not PROT
<Fare> what S_ flags???
<water> water
<Tril>         fd=open("/tmp/tictactoe", O_RDWR|O_CREAT, S_IRWXG);
<Fare> or rather, buf=mmap(...)
<water> darn!
<Tril> open flags
<water> abi: what is water?
<abi> you are an expression of the Tao
<water> alright!
* water/#tunes splaches around a bit.
<tcn> dammit, we're having a trade war with europe
<Tril> Fare: I used dd to create a 40-byte file, then I opened it and mmaped it.
<Fare> fd = open(name,O_RDWR|O_CREAT, S_IRWXU);
<Fare> 40-byte is too small
<Fare> try at least a page-long file
<Fare> I don't think it is specified what happens when you mmap() past the last whole page of a file (if any)
<Tril> I want a structure that is 40 bytes in the file, and it seems to work, but my program gets SEGV when it reaches the end of main().
<Fare> what does the SEGV error descriptor say?
<Fare> what does strace say?
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209.68.229.203] has joined #tunes
<Tril> it worked when I used a 4k file
<water> hey hick
<HickServ> hey does as86 use intel asm or shitty at&t?
<Tril> well, no segv
<HickServ> hi
<abi> niihau, HickServ
<Tril> hmm, wait, that's a 2k file
<water> tril, fare: maybe you should msg each other.
<Fare> HS: either, at your option
<HickServ> hmmmm
<Fare> HS: use nasm, anyway
<HickServ> how do i initialisze it?
<HickServ> um
<Fare> btw, at&t syntax is not shitty. Just different
<HickServ> i don't have any linux or internet access to my linux box
<HickServ> i can't get nasm
<Fare> HS: of course you can
<Fare> HS: can't you IRC?
<Fare> if you can IRC, you can get nasm
<HickServ> internet
<HickServ> key word
<Fare> does the concept of "floppy" ring a bell?
<Fare> IRC is on the internet!
<water> internet relay chat
<HickServ> well how do i get it on a floppy from windows?
<HickServ> my other box(the linux one) doesn't have a modem
<Fare> nasm is less than one floppy
<HickServ> erm
* Fare/#Tunes hits HickServ with a floppy
<tcn> Fare: you should update your Asm-HOWTO to say "use nasm"
<Fare> tcn: yes
<HickServ> i can only download it to my brother's windows comp
<Fare> I believe I did, but the HOWTO is still at home
<HickServ> so how do i get it onto a linux formated floppy?
<Fare> bizarrely, I haven't received any mail from the ldp for months...
<Fare> HS: linux can read dos-formatted floppies!
<HickServ> how?
* Fare/#Tunes hits HS with mcopy
04:40pm
* Fare/#Tunes hits HS with mount /dev/fd0 /floppy -t vfat
<HickServ> ok
* water/#tunes wonders why HS uses linux at all.
<HickServ> someone dcc me nasm :)
<HickServ> i know im o expert
-:- mode/#Tunes [+o Fare] by ChanServ
<tcn> hs: ftp it
<HickServ> but it brings out the best in my 486
<HickServ> i know but im lazy
-:- HickServ was kicked off #tunes by Fare (stop being annoyingly lazy)
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209.68.229.203] has joined #tunes
<tcn> ghahaah
<HickServ> *cry*
<HickServ> grrrrr
<hcf> Fare: u should at a2i to the asm-howto
<tcn> http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/dos
<Fare> a2i???
<abi> well, a2i is converts AT&T->INTEL/nasm style asm, at http://www.multimania.com/placr/a2i.html
<water> nasm?
<abi> i think nasm is at http://www.cryogen.com/nasm
<water> brb.. a minute or two.
<Fare> tcn: dos? funny thing
<HickServ> i hate the nasm website
<Fare> HS: who cares?
<HickServ> i do
<Fare> abi: wrong, it was /Nasm
<HickServ> i care
* HickServ/#tunes gives Fare a funny look
<hcf> abi: nasm is also at http://www.erols.com/johnfine/
<abi> okay, hcf.
<tcn> oh yeah
<tcn> he didn't ask for the dos version :)
<Fare> hcf: abi shouldn't downcase URLs as above
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-1.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<hcf> Fare: she doesnt, its how it was entered
* Fare/#Tunes laughs at HickServ's funny look
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-1.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
* HickServ/#tunes laughs back at Fare :)
<water> ok i'm back.
<HickServ> btw hi myrmidon
<HickServ> myrmidon i know from efnet
<HickServ> he's qz's bitch :)
<HickServ> j/k
<tcn> see ya all
<Fare> does EFnet still exist? Wasn't it crushed under its own weight?
<HickServ> later
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason)
<HickServ> hahaha
<HickServ> no
04:50pm
<HickServ> although it splits all the damn time
<HickServ> the netwrok needs to be remaped i think
* HickServ/#tunes printed out over 100 pages(both sides) of hardware stuff from qz's site :)))
<water> tril: done with hw?
<Fare> hcf: the anti-OOP rant you found is great, despite a slow start
<HickServ> oh my
<HickServ> Fare is an anti-OOP bigot
<HickServ> hehehe
<Fare> Brought to you by:
<Fare>                                    Under Construction. 
<Fare>                                Proud sponsors of over a million web pages,
<Fare>                                       and more every day! 
<Tril> water: No although this problem is worked around for now.
<water> i guess that Wiki is collaborating with them.
<Tril> how long are you going to be here
<water> ok.  i'd like to discuss the site.
<water> an hour or two
<Tril> water: I noticed in the log that you wmentioned Review and wiki.  Well, dufrp was moving the whole Review into wiki, or he was hoping someone would help him, but he gave up. He posted about it on the list..
<Tril> What we really need to do is move Review, (and the glossary, news items, and the rest of the page) into a SQL database
<water> maybe.  i was just thinking about a PCP-style web.
<Tril> I dont know hwat that is
<water> PCP -> principia cybernetica
<Tril> what style do they have?
<HickServ> fare: mount point /floppy does not exist
<water> abi: PCP is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory
<Tril> Hickserv: mkdir /floppy
<Tril> water: I know what it is, and i've been to the site, enough to know it's bigger than ours. But what style do you refer to?
<HickServ> that will make it on the harddrive
<HickServ> im trying to read a dos floppy
<HickServ> that'
<HickServ> s what fare told me to do
<Tril> hickserv: Mount requires an existing directory on the root filesystem in order to mount anything.
<Tril> hickserv: after you run mount the contents of the floppy appear under that subdirectory.
<HickServ> oh well "mount /dev/fd0 /floppy -t vfat won't work
<water> tril: simply isolating definitions of terms to a single node per term, with the terms in the definition linked to their nodes.
<Tril> water: PC *P*?  = Project?
<water> yes
<Tril> Water: that's what we're going to do
05:00pm
<Tril> that works for the glossary
<HickServ> :(
<water> ok, so why isn't it ready to replace the original?
<HickServ> well until then how do i tell as86 what type of asm i want?
<Tril> Hickserv, you need to read some intorudctory UNIX stuff before trying anything else
<HickServ> yeah really
<HickServ> well i shall be the master of BuenOS so that's ok :)))
<Tril> water: I haven't learned sql databases yet. And nobody else has volunteered.
<water> sql is very powerful.
<water> it's hardly a solution for a site as small as ours.
<Tril> i also intend to use php3.  It lets you embed database queries in HTML 
<water> just a minute. i'm going off line to move to another room, so that i can watch Tenchi Muyo.
<Tril> water: the other alternative is ASCII text files, metaprocessed by some scripts.
<hcf> Tril: http://www.linas.org/linux/db.html
<water> brb
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> oh, he's going to watch it and talk at the asme time
<hcf> tenchi muyo?
<Tril> anime
<hcf> oic
<HickServ> hey
<HickServ> that's pretty cool
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> i must go code
<HickServ> later
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:)(:)
05:10pm
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* Fare/#Tunes is back
<hcf> wb
<water> hi again
<Tril> hello 
<abi> hey, Tril
<Tril> water why do you think we don't need something powerful for our web page?  
<water> well, what would it be used for?
<Tril> Just what you said. Storing terms, text of pages, so they can refer to one another individually and be used to automatically generate HTML
<Tril> I still don't know how it will work in with Fare's CVS, maybe stop using CVS?
<Tril> well, the php3 source can be in cvs but the database data... if we use a database it seems a lot of extra work to export/import ASCII just so Fare's requirement of text be fulfilled
<water> well, CVS still gzip's accesses to the terms, doesn't it?
<Fare> I think we need tunes for the web pages
<Tril> yeah, well...
<Fare> so that we'd better keep things tunes-migratable
<Fare> now, perhaps getting php3 or whatever experience is good, too
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<Tril> now everyone's wondering what the purpose of tunes is, I think we had one, but Fare shot it down because of certain offensive language
<Fare> you can forget the cvs requirements for the database if you can just make a daily/whatever snapshot in an openly documented format.
<Fare> what did I shoot down?
<Tril> I'm talking about a fully object oriented computing system
<water> let's just use some simple (for users) application.
<Tril> I know Fare doesnt like the word "oriented". What shall we replace it with
<Fare> "homo-iconic"? <evil grin>
<water> hey!
<hcf> replace 'object' too
<Tril> water, users ...as the people reading the web page, or people editing them?  We should have everyone editing them, with retro-moderation.
<Fare> isn't that the way it is now?
<water> agreed
<Tril> Fare: No, only tunes members are editing them, not any web user
<Tril> well, wiki, but that doesn't count.
<Fare> that's the mostly way it should be.
<water> well, i for one have no idea how to modify tunes content.
<Tril> Fare: OK, fine. But tunes members should be able to edit them from their browser. with a password to the database
<hcf> web users should annotate not edit
<Fare> It's normal that Tunes members have more access than non-members to the pages
<water> i don't have linux, for instance, and don't intend to use it.
<Tril> water: with your bespin account you have access to the CVS repository. The web pages are stored there.
<Tril> so you have write access to change them.
<Fare> although I appreciate open wiki-like access for the public at large
<Fare> water: why not use linux?
<Fare> "I don't have a cmoputer, for instance, and don't intend to use one."
05:20pm
<water> well, how can i access CVS aside from a terminal?
<Tril> I told Alonzo to use ML to write his OS, do you think that was a mistake?
<Fare> water: in read-only mode, from the web
<Fare> Tril: if CMU guys could, why not Alonzo?
<Tril> water: you have windows, get WinCVS, a GUI cvs client
<Fare> althoug I'd recommend him OCAML over SML/NJ any day!
<Tril> Fare: Because he doesn't know the language yet
<Tril> Fare: ANd I don't know it much, either, so why should he listen to me recommedn it?
<Fare> because meta-knowledge is different from knowledge
<water> can't i ftp directly to the cvs?
<water> cvs?
<abi> cvs is probably Concurrent Version System at http://www.cyclic.com
<Tril> water, CVS has an internal format for revisions, like RCS. It stores all the changes to a file since its inception, in one file, and extracts the version you want when you "check out".
<Tril> water: You can just run cvs on bespin, in your home directory, and then FTP to that, sure.
<water> ok. where's WinCVS available from?
<hcf> http://www.cyclic.com/cvs/windows.html
<Tril> abi wincvs
<abi> it has been said that wincvs is at http://download.cyclic.com/pub/macintosh/maccvs3.0/wincvs.zip
<Tril> that url is old check it
<hcf> abi: wincvs is also at http://www.wincvs.org/
<abi> okay, hcf.
<water> ok
<water> tril's url is invalid
<Tril> abi, no, wincvs is at http://www.wincvs.org/
<abi> okay, Tril.
<hcf> abi: wincvs is also a win95/nt cvs client
<abi> okay, hcf.
<Fare> Tril: you said I "shot down" something...
<hcf> Fare: the term 'oriented'
<Fare> oh
<Tril> Fare, I think the goal of having a system where every part is an object, *IS* our goal. But your  anti-OO crusade made us look away from that
<water> ok, i'm downloading
<Fare> has anyone a nice database frontend to propose I setup for my mother?
<hcf> Tril: how does 'fully' differ from 'pure'?
<Fare> Tril: you needn't be "OO" for that. LISP systems did it well before the slogan "OO" was forged
<Tril> Fare: Aren't we looking for one of those for tunes web page, too?
<Tril> hcf: huh?
<hcf> Tril: n/m
<Fare> Tril: why not?
05:30pm
<Fare> although for my mom, I don't care if it's not web-based
<Tril> hcf, "pure functional" means the language has NO mechanism for variables (storage), just functions and return values.  "fully functional" I use to refer to an OS not a language
<Fare> pure, functional or not, means there are no side-effects
<hcf> not functional, oo
<Fare> or put it otherwise, that there is no implicit context, but that the semantics is entirely in the explicit expression
<water> storage mechanisms are merely shifted to a persistent store.
<Tril> Fare, are you saying that the goal I proposed is already achieved?
<Fare> Tril: not quite
<Tril> water: exactly
<Fare> water: uh?
<Fare> water: in what?
<Tril> The functional paradigm is the DYNAMIC part of the system.  Persistent store is the static part.  Both are required, but each is implicit from the other.
<Fare> in pure functional programming, storage is entirely explicited.
<water> fare: what about monads for functions?
<Fare> Tril: not forcibly
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<Fare> for instance, the Join-calculus can be considered some kind of pure language.
<Tril> Fare: forcibly, no, but bad style not to
<Fare> or perhaps it's just a "homo-iconic" side-effecting language?
<Fare> oh, and you were talking about monadic I/O in pure languages, not about pure languages in themselves.
<Tril> oh no, not another buzzword
<Fare> buzzword? where?
<Tril> homo-iconic
<abi> somebody said homo-iconic was a system that relates all of its abstractions to a common abstraction. or built from homo (same) icons (symbols or constructs).
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<Fare> what do you think about the buzzword entries in the FAQ and Glossary?
<Tril> abi, can't you just say metatopologically fully connected?
<abi> tril: bugger all, i dunno
<_water> tril: what's fully connected?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-20.tscnet.net])
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<Tril> for every piece of information, its meaning (meta-information) is connected to every other piece of metainformation in the system, by some route 
<water> ok
<Tril> possibly a route that says "this information has nothing to do with this other information" :)
<Tril> i meant connected as in a graph
<water> you mean a collection of arrows? :)
<Fare> Tril: maybe a better concept than "homo-iconic".
05:40pm
<water> what term is better than homo-iconic?
<Fare> although the precise topology should be explicited
<Fare> metatopologically fully connected
<Tril> Fare: OK
<water> ok
<water> that's a fairly technical term, anyway.
<Fare> water: did you coin the term "homo-iconic"?
<Tril> isn't that the asme thing as intensional, anyway?
<water> fare: no.
* Tril/#TUNES just coined mt-f-c
<Tril> i hope it means what I mean it to mean
<water> well, precisely...
<Tril> I understand intensional very little
<Tril> I have an intuitive feel for the concept, but ..
<hcf> Tril: dont let remain just mentioned in irc, detail it, and put it in the gloassary or something
<Tril> hcf, it should go in the definition of integrated, or unified, I think
<water> => the topology of the reference and inference flow for all meta-information is fully connected.
<hcf> Tril: as u might of seen in the log, i mentioned how much of we talk about here should detailed and added to the site
<hcf> instead of remaining unglorified in the irc log
<Tril> hcf: that's abi's job
<water> or, rather, we assume that.
<hcf> Tril: not really
<hcf> abi cant write the details for u
<Tril> water: Not quite what I meant.  It might not be connected ta the meta-level, but at SOME meta-level, perhaps meta-meta or higher
<Tril> I think
<water> again, you're thinking in layers.
<Tril> Am I?  Fine, if you look at it that way, then the way you said it was right.. but you have to mention that "layers are not taken into account."
<Tril> or "layers don't actually exist"
<Tril> or whatever
<Fare> yeah, isn't "homo-iconic" what I called "unified" in an old Tunes requirements page?
<water> i.e. "meta" is a relative direction.
<water> i should be able to construct a loop of meta-transitions.
<Tril> water, "meta" also means first-order meta, I.e. a specific "layer".
<Tril> loop?
<Tril> a loop around what?
<water> indeed.
<_QZ> can the AD crap be turned off in ncftp 3.0.0?
<hcf> meta is over used, a new prefix needs to be devised
<Tril> Fare: Maybe you mean the old Uniform?
<Tril> hcf, there's always hyper-
<Fare> hcf: ana- and cata-
<hcf> ada- and dada- ;)
<Tril> AD?
05:50pm
<water> pardon my informal term: i'd like to express that in a certain way, everything is a meta-meta-meta-(iteration...)-term over itself.
<Fare> anna- and maria-
<Fare> or bill- and hillary-
<hcf> whats the inverse of meta?
-:- Fare was kicked off #TUNES by Tril (lame)
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<Fare> :(
<water> meta-level vs object-level in AI research
<Tril> does anyone understand Yuriy's subject-object extension to subject-subject, object-subject, subject-object and object-object?
<Tril> he says it's from cognition theory, which I know nothing about
<Tril> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/2320/ua/
<water> it's just a term.
<water> i'll take a look
<Tril> 1. Subject - subject. We accept internal knowledge about a thing internally.
<Tril> Say, we see a cat, if one is black we say a cat is black.
<Tril> 2. Subject - object. We estimate external knowledge about a thing internally. At this stage, we began notice that a cat is not mere black but has gradual
<Tril> coloring or spots.
<Tril> 3. Object - object. We analyze external knowledge externally. With the courseof time (but not necessary), we accumulate several representations of a cat (that
<Tril> is our knowledge becomes external) and then we can find some relations between
<Tril> representations or the like.
<water> the human language that i developed cast all of those relationships into modalities
<Tril> 4. Object - subject. We synthesize internal knowledge externally. All in all,
<Tril> we
<Tril> discover relations in our different representations, ie we can institute
<Tril> internal knowledge basing on a external representations. Say, we can find
<Tril> dependence betweeen a hint of a spot on cat's skin and a light.
<water> the link is bad
<water> honestly, i don't see how a truly general cybernetic system could ever distinguish between internal and external in an absolute way.
<Fare> who's Yuriy?
<Tril> Fare: Uniform Abstract Language person
<hcf> hmm, http://www.npaci.edu/Research/DI/srb/mcat.html
06:00pm
<Tril> <amber-dragon@earthling.net>
* hcf/#tunes : away
<hcf> water: http://x40.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=479897299&CONTEXT=928458155.1756102679&hitnum=1
<Tril> hcf is that a post to lists.w3.org?
<Tril> www-talk, even
<water> ok
* hcf/#tunes : afk
<Tril> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1999JanFeb/0012.html
<Tril> That's strange that his Geocities account is down, I just offered him a bespin web page and he said geocities was fine.
<Tril> OK The deja one is what he had on the main page.. the www-talk one is the UA spec.  Together those make up most of what he had on the web site (if not all)
<_QZ> is ther something else that must be done after editing /etc/DIR_COLORS before they start working?
<Tril> qz yes :)
<_QZ> what
<Tril> eval `dircolors`
<Tril> alias ls='ls --color=auto'
<_QZ> =auto?
<Tril> or =yes
<_QZ> i am using ls --color
<Tril> you also need TERM=  that supports ANSI color
<_QZ> my colors are working
<Tril> such as "ansi", "linux", or "xterm"
<Tril> so what is your problem
<_QZ> but i edited DIR_COLORS and its still using the old colors
<Tril> Fare, Water: Are you guys reading the UAL stuff, or what?
<water> yes
06:10pm
<Tril> _QZ: try: $ eval `dircolors /etc/DIR_COLORS`
<_QZ> well that did something
<_QZ> it turned off color
<Tril> run the part in `` without eval to see what it is doing
<Tril> it probably unaliases ls or something
<_QZ> it made LS_COLORS and exported it
<_QZ> my ls alias is still ther
<water> ok. it seems to have some external features that are similar to those desired for Arrow.
<Tril> water, I dont really understand the object-subject stuff at all.
<Tril> can you explain?
<_QZ> oops
<water> hold on.  i'll look at that part.
<_QZ> it did work but i was running ls in a directory with only files
<_QZ> Tril: thanks
<Tril> _QZ : OK. You can also use ~/.dir_colors
<water> hmm..  interesting
<water> there's no mention of the subject-object relationship _per se_, but the analysis of context is definitely something to think about.
06:20pm
<Tril> ok you must have missed it
<_QZ> well i only have root and myself and i want the colors to match
<Tril> did you read the deja article
<water> wait one
<Tril> Well, he also had some pictures that were really interesting.  Red and blue circles...
<Tril> shifting between the subject-object perspectives.
<Tril> but I supose those aren't available, now.
<water> the articles are specs, and they don't contain the word 'subject' anywhere.
<Tril> Fare must have went to sleep
<water> you know, i forgot how hysterically funny Tenchi Muyo is.
<Tril> Water: did you see the one about the 4 traits of 5th Generation Languages: Abstract language, abstract calculus, abstract cognition (this has the subject-object stuff), and abstract science?
<water> where is that?
<Fare> hum
<Fare> not sleep yet, but soon
<Fare> tenchi muyo? who's that?
<water> oh wait. there it is.
<water> it's a japanese comedy animated show.
<Tril> abi, Tenchi Muyo is a Japanese animation series
<water> i don't think abi needs to know about that.
<Tril> I haven't seen it, but I heard the end theme, and it sounds pretty funny
<Fare> they don't show the good ones in France...
<Tril> water: sure she does. That was the second time someone asked what it was since you mentioned it.
<water> oh
<Tril> Fare: They don't SHOW them here, either. You order the videos through mail.
* Fare/#Tunes is subscribed to a newsletter by a typical paranoid conspiracy-nutty american
<Tril> what's his name
<Fare> they once broadcast Capt'n Future, and Cobra.
<Fare> I liked these
<water> the SciFi channel shows anime movies occasionally
<Fare> do they show NATO bombings, too?
<Tril> fare, what newsletter
<Fare> by a david gould, coffee@infotech.net.mx
06:30pm
<Tril> americans are stupid if they think nato hit all those places by accident
<Fare> they would also be stupid to think none was hit by accident
<Fare> the CIA is not remotely perfect
<Tril> maybe they missed some Kosovars, and hit some Serbs by accident
<water> neither is the NSA. :)
<Fare> my! they couldn't even predict the behavior of Milosevic!
<Tril> Fare: you're mixing up the army with the news media
<Fare> "Never ascribe to malice that which is caused by greed and ignorance."
<Fare> -- Cal Keegan
<water> or apply Occam's razor to the choice of explaining things via malicious intelligence vs greed and ignorance
<water> (Occam's razor, coincidentally, is an arrow leading away from the Tao.)
<Fare> water: malicious intelligence is a *very* complex thing. Greed and ignorance are very simple. Occam's razor tells us to account on the latter.
<Tril> Ockham
-:- GMOL [yadavm@elvis.scripps.edu] has joined #tunes
<Fare> btw, did you know that Occam's razor could be formalized in terms of Kolmogorov Complexity?
<Fare> Maneesh?
<water> fare: i know.
<GMOL> Tis
<Fare> Tis?
<Tril> that's what someone posted on the list today..
<Fare> oh
<water> fare: where do i get papers on kolmogorov complexity?
<GMOL> Don't have long...does anyone see how what Jim is proposing is at all different/useful?
<water> prism?
<GMOL> yes
<Fare> Water: get the bible: Introduction to K Complexity and its Applications
<Fare> by Vitanyi and Li
<water> on the web?
* Fare/#Tunes was honored to meet Mr Vitanyi in Nancy
<Fare> Water: no, on paper
<Fare> on the web, dunno.
<GMOL> Fare: Is Kolmogorov Complexity different than Chaitan's stuff?
<Fare> maybe Gregory Chaitin's books on the web...
<water> well, i'd like to save physical space.  that's my laptop's secondary purpose - to subsume my extant library.
<Fare> it's basically the same idea, discovered independently by lots of people at the same time: Kolmogorov, Solomonoff, Chaitin, etc...
<water> yes, i've heard that.
<GMOL> Yes..neat stuff..corect me if I am wrong but one cannot actually determine the complexity of a bit string yes?
<Tril> so who said complexity was completely bogus?
<Tril> did I read that in the arrow paper
<Fare> GMOL: depends what you mean
<Fare> GMOL: first complexity depends on a context (the choice of universal function)
<Fare> GMOL: then, it is not computable
<GMOL> complexity as in the smallest string that can be run through a Turing machine that produces the given string...then when is it computable?
<Fare> although it's uppergraph is semi-computable
06:40pm
* Fare/#Tunes had two days of course on the subject
<Fare> in Nancy
<water> tril: how would the arrow paper say something about complexity?
<GMOL> When you pick out a fixed machine (Chaitan's is doing something with a LISP VM and he does sort of get around the Godel aspect of AIT yes?)
<GMOL> Anyone can say anything about prism?  It really doesn't look like anything but writing out C structs in binary..
<water> prism?
<Tril> GMOL, yes, prism is useful. You define new metamodels, that is nothing like C++
<Fare> that's Chaitin, and he has books online
<water> but metamodel definition is unclean.
<Tril> it would be like defining new semantics to the language and then interoperting the two models together
* Fare/#Tunes hasn't read enough of Prism to comment
<water> wow, i used the word 'unclean'. i feel like a rabbi.
<GMOL> Yes I have looked at them...but I believe this is some of his newer stuff..know anything about his LISP VM efforts?
<Tril> what do you mean water
<GMOL> Tril, please write out something in prism that defines a new metamodel (=class as far as I have seen?)
<Fare> GMOL: John Tromp has proven that combinators were at least as effective (and much cleaner) than Chaitin's contorted LISP stuff
<water> metamodel definition models aren't subject to clean manipulation.
<GMOL> Have a link?  Never heard of that stuff...
<Fare> watere: why not???
<water> water: why?
<Tril> GMOL: Any _Stream or _Map object you define is a new metamodel
<GMOL> water: when are you going to be in SD...it'd be neat if we could hook up and talk for a bit..
<Fare> abi: John Tromp is at http://www.cwi.nl/~tromp, and is working on K-complexity (with Paul Vitanyi) and universal prefix machines...
<water> fare: why?
<Fare> SD?
<GMOL> Any metamodel you define is just a collection of _Stream or _Map objects...no different than a class...just show me an example of creating a metamodel that doesn't behave exactly like a class?
<GMOL> San Diego
<Fare> why shouldn't metamodels be subject to clean manipulations?
<Fare> NuPRL people have done it!
<Tril> GMOL, the meaning of a metamodel isn't predetermined by the language
<Tril> that's what the domain abstraction part is about
<water> i'm not saying that they shouldn't, i'm saying that they aren't.
<Tril> when you use _Bit, _stream, etc to define programs that build new virtual machines
<GMOL> Then how do you define the meaning of the metamodel in Prisim...
<GMOL> ?
<Tril> the meaning depends entirely on how it is used
<Tril> just as in any system, data's meaning is assigned by functions on it
<Tril> in C++ a class already has some meaning
<GMOL> Which is no different than existing bytecodes!  Lookat how he define's the integer metamodel...tell me how that is different than doing it with a class?
<GMOL> the meaning of a class also depends on how yu use it
06:50pm
<Tril> GMOL, at least C++ doesn't consider function bodies to be classes
<Tril> that's a difference
<Tril> no reflection
<water> but prism only provides limited reflection
<GMOL> To say prism provides reflection is like saying assembly provides reflection..you can only look at the individual bit sequences representing computations, and nothing else no?
<Tril> yes, I think he will run into trouble when getting into heavier reflection.  But aren't we all?  :)
<water> it's one thing to reflect on a declared object and its execution state. it's another thing to reflect on the declaration of that object itself.
<Fare> ouch, he said the C++ word!
<Fare> C++?
<abi> C++ is a language that adds quite something to C, but in the end has no more value than C
<GMOL> Well then as I said, what he is doing is no different than C++, you can grab the addresses of functions and look at there compsitions...
<GMOL> in binary, but I woulnd't call that reflection
<water> if a language tries to promote simlicity, but doesn't include the construction processes that a programmer uses among its objects, then it will not be suitable for tunes.
<water> if "everything is an object", then what is the declaration of an object?  how do you model it?
07:00pm
<water> well, i'm sorry that i stopped the discussion.
<Fare> water: if everything is an object, you don't need a special declaration to make anything "an object"
<Fare> you don't *make* anything an object, either. Everything *is* already an object!
<Tril> hcf are you here?
<GMOL> Tril, again please tell how Prism is anything different than C++
<water> i mean, what is an object's specification?  if 'source code', whatever its nature, isn't a construction of system objects that the system can analyze, then everything is NOT effectively an object.
<Tril> GMOL, you should contact jiml and arrange a meeting here so he can defend his system himself..i'm not too good at ti
<Tril> it
<water> fare: everything might be an object for you, but what about the system's view of things?
<water> if the system can't reify or abstract something on its own, then it's NOT an object.
<Tril> water, you mean for the user interface?? If the system uses the same interface as the user, then everything's an object for both..
<GMOL> Well you did say that it is different, you must have a reason.
<Fare> water define "reify on its own"
<Fare> did you read the glossary entry for reification?
<Tril> GMOL not really..only because Jim thinks so
<Tril> I also think Prism is rather low-level
>>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 928462126 583286 from #TUNES
<Tril> water's lagged
<Tril> that's beacuse...irc.linux.com is faraway..
<water> fare: yes, i read the entry. i just re-read it for good measure.
07:10pm
<water> i mean reify dynamically.  reify an arbitrary concept.
<Tril> Mail delivery failed: forwarding to Postal gateway
<Tril> ;)
<water> tril: what?
-:- krz [krz@d3.owo.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi krz
<krz> hey
<Tril> i'm in my inbox. one subject says "Mail delivery failed: returning message" and the immediately following message has the word 'human' in it. So I misread it as saying "Human delivery failed" 
<water> oh. ok.
<Tril> it's some wcug dude
<Tril> that I don't know 
<Fare> you cannot ever reify "arbitrary" concept
<Tril> hi krz :)
<krz> hey .. other wcug dude that i sorta know
<water> fare: why not? as long as there's a computable way to do it...
<water> btw, the religion entry in the glossary is absurd.
<Tril> arbitrary includes stuff that the computer has no definition for, example in point, comments in program code
<Tril> abi: Reify
<GMOL> gotta go...Brian...look at Gougeon's stuff (type in CafeOBJ at a search engine), and I am interested in what you have to say.
<water> well, if you provide construction mechanisms which are sufficient, you should be able to exceed present-day systems.
<water> gmol: ook.
<Tril> of course you are assuming a abstract concept manipulation system which we don't evne have
<Tril> you can't reify if you haven't an abstraction first
<Tril> i hate being negative. I'm sure there's a way :)
-:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh12-port187.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<billyboof> hello
<Tril> hi
<abi> hoy, Tril
<Tril> abi, tell billyboof about hello
<billyboof> hello?
<Tril> Fare did you also get this mail delivery failed to core@augustin.thierry?
<water> i know, but then you'd be arguing against my complaints about current systems based on the fact that we haven't exceeded them.  that's bogus.
07:20pm
<Fare> Tril: uh?
<Fare> no.
<Fare> Such an address is forcibly one I typed
<Fare> (a*.t* is the fake domain in my firewalled home LAN)
<Tril> Fare: There is an output of you running 'make' on ZhengHe, addressed to core
<Tril> But somehow it got sent thru bespin, screwing things up because you didn't fully qualify your domain
<Fare> oh, core received it in the end (I might have bounced it)
<Tril> ok
<GMOL> To all, I think a lot of these sub projects we have to look at what they are and call a duck a duck; I am not at all impressed by what Jim has producded as it doesn't seem at all different than standard programming; I think it would be good to take a look and post your opinions.  BTW  One last thing to clarify, I am not so much against Retro.  We don't need to create an OS, but if you are going to
* Fare/#Tunes must have been using the wrong MUA
<Tril> it said mutt
<Fare> yeah, but mutt as root...
<Tril> but you were root
<Tril>  :)
<GMOL> make one, do it with some intellegnce in design.  All the neat features are not going to be magically integerated in the end.
<GMOL> That's all for today folks...ja ne.
<Tril> soo desu ka  ,  ja mata
-:- SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Read error to GMOL[elvis.scripps.edu]: EOF from client)
<Fare> instead of mutt as fare
<Fare> what language was that?
<water> japanese
<Tril>   are we finished with the "everything is an object" discussion? 
<water> i don't know.
<Tril> did water answer fare's question about reify, and did fare answer water's question about the system's perspective?
-:- SignOff krz: #TUNES (wonk!)
<water> i've lots of objections to Fare's point of view.
<water> he definitely didn't answer mine.
<Tril> I have a very simple perspective. "Everything is an object" means there is one type which is a supertype of every other type.
* hcf/#tunes is back
<hcf> Tril: u wanted me for something?
<water> can you deal with the circular reference?
<Tril> hcf, no, there is no webpage for MU, but I know what it is now.   Basically, Mate wants to make a reflective dynamic assembler.
<Tril> water, which one?
<water> and what about relationships that don't admit of super-sub distinction.  you definitely have aggregation and association.
<Tril> I deal with them one at a time, as they come :)
<Tril> not every relationship is a "subtype-of" one
<hcf> ok, thx
<water> well, a "universal type" has to be a sub-type, otherwise your semantics will be all screwed up.
07:30pm
<Tril> that's trivial, since every set is a subset of itself.
<water> then what's the point of the universal supertype?
<Tril> the precondition for set membership in "Objects" is just set to "True".
-:- SignOff ^Myrmidon: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ^Myrmidon[dm4-2.slc.aros.net])
<Tril> the point is that you can instantiate it
<water> so?
<abi> rumour has it so is he just gonna make bochs emulate only system instructions in freemware
<Tril> and have variables which vary over "any object", like LISP symbols do by default
<water> ?!?!?!?!? abi ?!??!
<Tril> abi: forget so
<abi> Tril: I forgot so
<water> haha
<water> anyway
<Tril> the point is that this unversal type completes the "meta-toplogical connection" between any two objects in the system.
<hcf> abi: so is <reply>
<Tril> so?
<abi> tril: bugger all, i dunno
<water> so, subtype instantiation is your system construction method?
<water> but isn't this supertype featureless? or does it mean that the maximum amount of information can be stated about it?
<Tril> I guess.  
<Tril> (I guess it is the system construction method--not sure what you mean )
<water> well, in lisp, you build things by cons'ing, quoting, and applying functions.
<Tril> featureless..well, the only feature it provides is existence, (anything not in it is not in the system/persistent store), so yes
<water> (plus some mathematical primitives, but i'm ignoring that)
<Tril> Yes, to be completely pure about the system, it has to be featureless
<water> so you have an existential quantifier with no implicit assumptions.
<Tril> OTherwise, there would be some "required" features, and we don't want that.  Not even the ability to take a reference to an object.  I.e. we want to control all operations
<Tril> there exists X in the set of objects, is always true, yes. If "awlays true" counts as no implicit assumptions
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<_QZ> Tril: what is the name of that place that gives out dns names for dynamic ips?
<water> the only way that things could be implicit for that object is to talk about it within a language.
<Tril> do you mean the implicit assumptions which are defined by the membership in a type? then yeah
07:40pm
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<water> in logic, as i'm sure you know, the set of statements concerning featureless existentially quantified objects forms the logical theory, and in turn its model and positive diagram.
<Tril> water: Actually, in practice, you can't have objects which are only members of the root type, because there would be no way to take a reference to them, and therefore they would be garbage collected. (Or should be, since there would be no way to use them, to add them into any other types.)
-:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com)
<water> well, then how do you create new subtypes, then?
<water> (note unnecessary repetition of the word 'then'.) :)
<Tril> ok
-:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250122.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hey tcn
<tcn> hey brian
<tcn> I'm looking for doc's on various data structures & algorithms
<water> we're discussing some stuff about objects and types.
<water> hmm.. such as?
07:50pm
<tcn> heaps and trees, at the moment
<water> i'd recommend knuth's art of comp. programming volume one, then.
<Tril> water, if you want to define a new type as a subtype of another, you have to provide a function from the supertype to boolean, to indicate which objects of the supertype are members of the subtype.
<Tril> more generally, you provide a function from the supertype to anything, and select one of the values in the range. The set of objects that map to that given value forms your subtype.
<tcn> Knuth's book would be nice, but I ain't got it. Seen any web pages?
<water> so, you can instantiate members of the root type as temporary function arguments?
<Tril> yeah, right now that's basically how it works (creating new objects)
<Tril> but that's the same thing as saying "there is a 0-argument function that returns a new object"
<Tril> which ther eis
<water> ok
<water> tcn: not sure, really.
<Tril> water: If you keep this up (asking me about my system) we might end up getting a complete specification :)
<Tril> but that might take a long time..
<tcn> if I find anything good, I'll add it to the Language Review
<water> so, functions generate subtypes?
<water> what's the relation between the two?
<Tril> well, you can create types many ways, creating subtypes the way I described is just one of them. there's also union, intersection, difference (std. set operators) on other types
<Tril> obviously I also need to have induction as a means to define types
<Tril> i'll get to that someday..
<water> what's a definition, then?
<water> (obviously its the relation between the function and the type it defines)
<Tril> the relationship, though, is that a type is defined by a membership operator
<water> membership would be a relation, not an operator, though.
<Tril> that's the only requirement I have right now, and it'll probably stick.  OTher operations, such as mapping, and quotienting would be optional
<Tril> what's an operator?  a function that returns the same type as its argument(s)?
<water> yes, and it only takes tuples of a single type or specific types.
<Tril> what about tuples? you mean tuples as "the tuple of all the arguments passed to the function"?
08:00pm
<Tril> all functions in my system take objects of a single type. (but you can define a new type just for that one function, if you want)
<Tril> the purpose of types is you use them to specify preconditions and postconditions of functions. The precondition must be true before the function can be evaluated, and the postcondition is guaranteed to be true of the function's result.
<Fare> quotienting is NOT optional
<Fare> or else you haven't got a reflective system
<water> i'm still not comfortable with the primacy of pre- and post-conditions over function definition.
<water> fare's right.
<Tril> I meant an optimized quotienting for a particular type. The system can always create a quotient function for an arbitrary type, by mapping the membership function for the type to all the members in the supertype.  It follows that the supertype needs a map function.  Therefore quotienting only is guaranteed if there are a finite number of objects in the system (which may not be true)
<Tril> at least it's undecidable
<Fare> uh?
<Tril> i kind of threw that out didnt i
<Fare> yes, undecidable, which is exactly the kind of expressiveness we need
<Tril> that's the idae
<Tril> just trust me, the requirements I have will allow the system to construct a quotienting function for an arbitrary type. But you can provide a quotienting function that would be simpler/faster, if you awnt.
* Fare/#Tunes falls asleep
<water> what's so special about undecideability?
<Tril> water: the membeship in a type is undecidable, i.e. the precondition can be undecidable, needed for maximum expressivbity (Otherwise you can't write ANY function in terms of a type membership)
<Tril> change ANY to ALL
<Tril> you already know the map function can be undecidable, to allow infinite types
<_QZ> have u guys heard of the adapter to make the 370 celeron work in smp boards?
<_QZ> there is suppose to be one that makes the slo1 celeron work too
<Tril> _QZ : Which one is well known?
<Tril> _QZ: Do you mean a device that does it without you having to drill out one of the pins and solder a wire in there?
<Tril> I didnt know there was one
<_QZ> ya
08:10pm
<Tril> did you already know about the modification to make SMP celerons?
<_QZ> the 370 is just teh chip so the adapter was easy to make for it
<Tril> silly if you didnt'
<water> i'm downloading that bible of kolm. complexity now
<_QZ> but the guy at my dealer place said there is now one for the slot1 celeron and he is trying to order tehm in
<Tril> water i take it you have no objection to the undecidable thing..
<_QZ> i havent drilled my celerons yet
<tcn> hey qz, I decided not to get a new box
<_QZ> i thought one went bad
<tcn> i'd rather have a Telecaster
<_QZ> but it just didnt work in teh dual board
<_QZ> so im gonna put it in this board and either drill the other two or buy those adapters
<water> tril: no, but it's a weak argument. you should argue for something more specific.
<_QZ> tcn: telecaster?
<tcn> qz: guitar
* Tril/#TUNES gave guitar to sister, he's too lazy to learn now
<Tril> i'll learn the keyboard first
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> im pretty good at the qwerty keyboard :)
<tcn> impulse tracker :)
<Tril> water:  why should we have a restriction that says "type membership must be decidable"?  Obviously, the system would be more powerful without that restriction.
<Tril> I'm not sure what there is to argue about.
<Tril> pianoman.com
* water/#tunes would love to be able to channel his guitar through a professional selection of music software.
<Tril> MIDI guitars? hehe
<Tril> it sounds like those would be expensive, if there is such a thing.
<water> bleh. no, something along the lines of ProTools with real-time input.
<tcn> don't use a x86, use DSP's
<Tril> digital editing?
<water> tril: i'm saying that there's more to expressibility than being undecidable.
<Tril> is every member of TUNES interested in music somehow?
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> I guess that's why the name Tunes attracted them
<hcf> has anyone looked into agora?
<water> abi: tuneser?
<Tril> water, oh, ok. That's not contrary to what I was saying. All I (and fare) are saying is that limiting to decidable functions is less expressive.
<abi> water: wish i knew
<Tril> hcf: We looked enough to see the word "message passing", and shirk away
<Tril> of course, this is probably a losing strategy, since it is REFLECTIVE
<tcn> we're agoraphobic
<Tril> ugh
<water> :)
<water> tuneser
<abi> i think tuneser is on average a young white male hacker or programmer interested in music and rpg's
<hcf> whats wrong w/ message passing?
<water> there! now its official!
08:20pm
<hcf> abi: tunerer is also one who strives to create the perfect CD database software
<abi> wish i knew, hcf
<Tril> let's check the glossary for that one
<water> that CDDB example needs some siblings
<tcn> hehe
* tcn/#tunes volunteers to write working examples
<water> good.  i'm sure utopian visions of computing are hardly beyond you.  just make it realisitic, ok?
<Tril> oops, it's in the TODO
<Tril> hcf: The main thing is that message passing is a useless concept.  It is no different in essence than a function call.  So why call it message passing?
<hcf> then what r better solutions?
<Tril> just use a functional language, where if you want to call a function, you do it, rather than implicitly call a function by "sending a mesage".
-:- _water [water@ppp-tnt-156.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril> I'm heavily influenced by Fare on this one, but I was writing a message-passing OS when I joined TUNES, and he convinced me to stop
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-227.tscnet.net])
<Tril> well, he gave the arguments against it, and I decided to stop
-:- _water is now known as water
* water/#tunes forms a small pool in a low-lying area of the room.
<water> ahhh!
<Tril> are you pissing in the channel?
<Tril> oh maybe just being water
* water/#tunes IS the small pool in a low-lying area of the room!
* Tril/#TUNES is  not a symbiant
<Tril> (those are spelled with two 'l's)
<water> :)
08:30pm
<water> do you think arrow could serve as a research adjunct to K-complexity theory?
<water> sort of a relativisation of the subject?
<Tril> adjunct to only one thing? tunes is adjunct to a billion things, so arrow should be pretty close.  but you probably mean something else.
<Tril> i'm thinking adjacent
<water> maybe a natural generalization
<Tril> I think Fare said that K-complexity doesnt make too much sense because you can make a new language that can write the program shorter. maybe I'm misrepresenting k-c?
<water> no, i think that you have it right, although i should look at it more closely.
<water> it says on this one web page that shannon's info theory interprets absolute K-c as impossible
<Tril> it seems like my idea is silly, because you can write any program as exactly one object, that's the purpose of abstraction
<Tril> and the complexity of the implementation depends on how well the program's concent maps onto the hardware, which also has nothing to do with how complex the program is for people to understand.
<Tril> K-c is supposed to be some absolute measure of complexity? What does absolute mean? For people in general? For one person? for the universe?
08:40pm
<Tril> i only really know what Fare explained in the channel to me about it once
<water> well, it _is_ a formal mathematical theory.
<water> not to say that formal mathematics doesn't ignore certain issues.
<Tril> then the absolute basis for comparison is mathematics itself. So I take it non-mathematical concepts have a high K-c rating :)
<water> that is probably so.
<water> of course, mathematics is largely informal with good reason, but most mathematicians can't deal with that concept.
<Tril> hehe... we'll show them
<water> here's a new language (coincidence) ALMA - an imperative constraint programming language.
<water> well, i know that _i'll_ show them.
<water> ALMA-0 is an extension of Modula-2
<water> extension of a subset of , rather.
<water> 53k for a compiler?
<water> ok. it's a small research language with no pretentions.
<Tril> sorry I haven't run your Arrow prototype yet.
<Tril> did you say it did something? or is it like mine, just to read code
<water> don't! it'll deadlock! just file in and browse
<Tril> it tries to follow all the arrows?
<water> interesting... ALMA provides general-purpose quantifiers.
<water> yes, and NulArrow (or any self-referencer or graph referencer) doesn't evaluate.
08:50pm
<water> anyway, i'm concentrating on making it fully (and minimally) functional.
<water> i.e. providing the minimal number of arrow handles for the VM.
<Tril> working-functional or lambda-functional
<water> both, actually.
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-157.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi
<HickServ> hey when i type "make" in the nasm directory it doesn't do anything(im unix illiterate)
<HickServ> hi
<_QZ> hick
<HickServ>  serv
<_QZ> u see the api?
<HickServ> um
<HickServ> im not in my email
<_QZ> i emailed u
<tcn> he: ./configure ?
<HickServ> ok
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> that will work
* Tril/#TUNES phears HickServ trying to compile something
<HickServ> and one more thing(i really gotta finish my homework so you must be quick)
<HickServ> hehehe
<tcn> hs: does mate' mean anything in spanish?
<HickServ> what is the best way to do linux file io in asm
<HickServ> i don't think so
<HickServ> i don't speak much spanish mind you
<tcn> oh :)
<HickServ> hehehe im in spanish 1
<tcn> I think it's portuguese anyway
<HickServ> but i act like i know a lot :)
<HickServ> ok
<Tril> Mate is in .hu which is Hungary
<HickServ> well anyone know?
<tcn> it's some kind of food or spice
<HickServ> linux file io in asm c'mon
* HickServ/#tunes is edgy
<Tril> The answer is to use the OS open, read, and write function calls
<Tril> learn how to call the kernel in ASM, and do it.
<HickServ> er
<HickServ> hmmmm
<HickServ> i guess i won't fux0r with it then tonight
<HickServ> well thanks for the unix help
* HickServ/#tunes loves this cannel cause he gets l33t inf0z :)
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (later)
09:00pm
<Tril> an easy way would be to look at the output of gcc -S
<_QZ> oh oh oh i want a g400
<Tril> fine, leave
<tcn> qz: haha
<tcn> I might get a non-upgradeable g200
-:- Tril has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: TuN3Z - the place for l33t inf0z :)
<tcn> (by the logic that, by the time I want to upgrade it, it'll be obsolete anyway)
<_QZ> non-upgradeable g200?
<tcn> yeah, they sell for about 2/3 the price of the upgradeable ones
<Tril> woohoo! a contribution to review!
<_QZ> i have a g200
<tcn> how much ram?
<_QZ> how do i tell if its upgradeable and what is it upgradeale to?
<_QZ> 8meg
<tcn> i dunno
<tcn> how much did it cost?
<Tril> looks great! we haven't had one of those for a long time. Now do you want to add it with your wincvs or do I need to?
<_QZ> ~$100
<tcn> probably upgradable to 16M
<Tril> matrox
<_QZ> oh yer talking about upgradeable ram?
<water> you need to. wincvs won't install yet.  bad downloads.
<tcn> maybe you can upgrade other stuff
<_QZ> mine has ram slots to add more ram
<water> i'm checking out the Cyc site now.
<water> it has some interesting ontologies!
<tcn> I could get a 16M non-upgradeable for the price of an 8M upgradeable :)
<Tril> water: where?
<water> www.cyc.com
<water> check out publications.html
<_QZ> WICKED!! the g400 has dual output
<_QZ> dual headed beast in one card
<_QZ> a g400 MAX is definitely on my to-buy list
<tcn> you buy too much shit
<_QZ> i might even get off my ass and go buy it soon
<tcn> pretty soon i'm gonna be tripping over old computers everywhere I go, because of people like you :)
<_QZ> oh damn, its not out yet
<water> here's another language: CycL
-:- Dragoon [dragoon@user-38ldhif.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
09:10pm
<water> hey dragon
<Tril> water, is there a general URL for alma?
<Tril> hi starcraft player :)
<Dragoon> Hello. what's this 'l33t inf0z' :) about?
<water> tril: yes, that's the one i gave you.  it's most likely the only one.
<Tril> it means we can usually answer any question that comes up
<Dragoon> Oh, it's not starcraft. think final fantasy 2
<Dragoon> Okay, then my question is: What's the best HTML editor for linux?
<hcf> Dragoon: vi
<Tril> emacs
<_QZ> $149 for the G400 and $229 for the g400 max
<Dragoon> I sense many ideological differences here. :>
<Tril> Dragoon: You mean a WYSIWYG one?  Netscape Composer (part of communicator) is about the only one
<_QZ> Dragoon: gnome has gnotepad+ and gxedit
<Dragoon> Not really. Any of you know what DidaPro is?
<Dragoon> It's text-based, but has a preview feature. That's what I'd like.
<hcf> Dragoon: thats a windoze thing
<Dragoon> It's win95 only, and I'm going to be ditching win as soon as I get something other than a winmodem, so I'm looking for replacements.
<Tril> Dragoon, you can preview just by loading netscape, of course..
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-156.tscnet.net])
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp273.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> Dragoon: i got a Zoom 56k external that works good
<tcn> better than my old USR piece of crap :)
<tcn> and much cheaper
<Dragoon> I know. It's just more convient(argh I can't spell now) that way. Dida also automatically sets width height on images, which saves time.
<Dragoon> tcn: for my birthday, i'm getting a whole upgrade and an external will be part of it. can't wait for some real speed, winmodems just suck.
<tcn> I use joe's editor or pico for web page editing :)
<tcn> winmodems really suck for playing quake.. they hog your CPU to do DSP
<Dragoon> I always thought real men used cat for editing :) Ghod, I don't even try to play anymore. I'll have my fun soon tho.
<_ruiner_> real men use edlin
<Dragoon> what's edlin?
<Tril> edlin is the dos port of ed, the unix line-based editor
<_ruiner_> a text editor for dos
<_ruiner_> its a major pain in the ass
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
09:20pm
<Dragoon> if i wanted to be that masochistic, i'd just rip out the harddrive and use really small magnets to change the bytes by hand.
<_ruiner_> lmao
<_ruiner_> you would have bragging rights over anybody on earth if you did that
<Tril> if you were masochistic you wouldnt need a disk
<Dragoon> what, i'd still use punch cards?
<Dragoon> Not that I ever did or anything, but..
* Tril/#TUNES  is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<tcn> you could edit with DIP switches
<tcn> like on those Altairs I've only read about
<Dragoon> ever seen an analog computer? You switch around 60+ cables to do different computations.
<Dragoon> okay, i've got another question. is it possible to route the output from a console program to the X root?
<Dragoon> i'm thinking cmatrix as a background here.
09:30pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us316.javanet.com])
<_QZ> dragon: i dont think so but u can use transparent terminals with no borders
<_QZ> have teh terminal start up maximized
<Dragoon> on a p133/15mb of ram? it's painful. oh well.. more things to wait for.
<Dragoon> 15mb ain't a typo either.. never let siblings come close to computers.
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> s/he took one out?
09:40pm
<_QZ> u cant have 15meg
<Dragoon> pretty much. it's two 8mb, but two little brothers hit the box, and after that, it's been 15mb of ram..
<_QZ> uhh
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<water> tril: here's something for you: in CycL, non-atomic types (NATs) are made by functions.
<water> oh yes. i'm back!
<water> what have i missed?
<_QZ> does netscape 3.01 have a zoom feature that im unaware of?
<water> yes.
<_QZ> this page on fastgraphics.com uses text so small that i cant read it
<_ruiner_> you can't have 15 meg dude
<_QZ> oh ya i can change the font size
<water> wait. no, opera is the one with that option.
<_QZ> ahh much better, bigger text
<Dragoon> when it starts up, the ram check only runs to 15 megs or so. i'd call that 15 megs of ram.
09:50pm
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<water> hey phoenix
<BlackPhoenix> yes
<water> what's up?
<BlackPhoenix> ...and what should up?
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<BlackPhoenix> life...
<BlackPhoenix> or you mean something specific?
<water> is there anything that you'd like to discuss?
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<BlackPhoenix> it depends on who are you and what are you doing here... and if you know me
<water> i'm Brian, the originator of the Arrow idea for Tunes.
<water> i'm not sure that i knwo you, though.
<BlackPhoenix> I'm sorry but I don't know what is Arrow idea although I am acquiant with Tunes... :(
<water> well, there's a paper about it on the Tunes web site, but it's pretty technical.
<BlackPhoenix> And I am the originator of UA (Uniform Abstract Language) and one day Tril get know about it and invite me to collaboration or at least being conscious about each other
<BlackPhoenix> I am already bound for it
<water> really? i was just downloading your web research!
10:00pm
<water> i liked your ideas about contexts (modalities, ... )
<BlackPhoenix> how you got know about it?
<water> from tril, actually.
<BlackPhoenix> thank you! I was exerted for mere several years to be liked by someone...
<BlackPhoenix> in tunes where should I go? in subprojects?
<water> my arrow idea is somewhat similar, in that it is very abstract, and deals with contexts as well
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<water> ok.
<water> well, you should probably learn about the project by looking at the site and asking questions.
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<water> darn!
<BlackPhoenix> it is important we understand under word "context" the same meaning... Are you sure is that so?
<BlackPhoenix> what is darn? the original meaning or acronym?
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<water> hello?
<water> welcome back
<BlackPhoenix> wow! I think we have more the similar points than I and TUNES... I will read your draft... it is a pity you have not examples... 
10:10pm
<BlackPhoenix> ooh... these connections...
<water> yes it is, although i am continuing to write.
<water> i will have this paper completed soon, and one or two more short ones following that.
<water> i'm also going to add to the Tunes site.
<BlackPhoenix> so do I too... I mean I am continuing to write too
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<water> i have a lot of theory and proofs to develop for my system
<BlackPhoenix> I don't know whether you know but try don't say you want complete a paper... It's infinite process, in general... ;)
<water> i need to give examples, of course.
<BlackPhoenix> I need to go somewhere but I am going to return for awhile...
<water> yes. my first paper doesn't answer many of its own questions.
<water> ok.
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<water> hi billy
<billyboof> hi water..whats up
<water> i'm doing web research
<water> and explaining things to people here
<water> (actually i've asked as many questions as i've answered)
<billyboof> ahhh.... i probably should work on my webpage some more... too lazy though :)
<water> where is it?
<billyboof> lemme check :)
<tcn> hehe.. Maneesh found someone else to argue with :)
<billyboof> maneesh?
<water> why? where's maneesh?
<billyboof> http://pages.cthome.net/consultant/prios.htm
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10:20pm
<water> ok. i'll take a look at it
<billyboof> nothing good on it...
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<billyboof> except for the links about microsoft..
<billyboof> i worked on it for like 30minutes..
<water> i just wanted to know what your interests were.
<billyboof> oh... :)
<tcn> wow. JMC has some strange ideas
<water> tcn: i have most of his papers. what is strange?
<tcn> the social/politicial/scientific stuff
<tcn> nuclear power and pesticides are healthy
<tcn> that kind of stuff
<water> oh. the 'society can't sustain itself' stuff
<BlackPhoenix> I am back...
<water> ok
<water> welcome back
<tcn> christ, who needs nuclear power, when we have solar and wind
<water> umm.. submarines?
<water> (btw, i work on nuclear reactors)
<BlackPhoenix> well, I think we need to examine a paper of each other and to say something... Although it is difficult to say something if you have your own opinion but at least we should try...
<BlackPhoenix> you mean you are related to nuclear physics?
<water> phoenix: i agree. i've already looked at your papers a little.  in a few days, i might have a good understanding.
<water> phoenix: no, i mean that my job is as a technician in the navy working on aircraft carrier reactors.
<water> although i'm very familiar with nuclear physics.
<tcn> heh.. everyone can have solar/wind power, saving the need for transmission lines.. but everyone have a reactor? :)
<BlackPhoenix> I must confess I am working close together with someone who has good understanding and this someone wants to help me to bring my ideas to others who while don't understand it. So, if you won't understand something then wait awhile and I will issue new paper...
<water> well, the technology isn't ready to support that.
10:30pm
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<water> phoenix: don't worry, i have an extensive background in formal mathematics and the sciences, as well as my research in computer science. i doubt that your ideas will be hard to understand.
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<BlackPhoenix> question is why you are trying to do something in computer science? it is hobby, vocation or what?
<water> phoenix: don't worry, i have an extensive background in formal mathematics and the sciences, as well as my research in computer science. i doubt that your ideas will be hard to understand.
<water> no.  computer science enables people to understand my ideas about other things... like human languages and philosophy
<water> philology, rather.
<BlackPhoenix> matter isn't you have background in mathematics but in my English and some clandestine spots in a paper which appears clear for me but aren't for others
<water> the Arrow project is not just about computers, but about cybernetics in general.  it is also about people and their ideas.
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<BlackPhoenix> wow! it means we have even more common points because I originate from philosophy too... I thought and think it is necessary for good understanding cybernetics in general
<water> ok
<water> when i was in high school, i developed ideas about language, and there resulted a prototype language that i tested with a friend.
<water> the Arrow system derives mostly from that language.
<BlackPhoenix> but why this language isn't present there?
<water> because people aren't ready to deal with its ideas.
<water> it's more powerful than any extant human language.  people are afraid of freedom like that.
<BlackPhoenix> oops...? how is that could be so? it is too difficult to understand or what? and if you are acquiant a little with UA then say how your language differs from mine?
<BlackPhoenix> sorry for my English...
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10:40pm
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<BlackPhoenix> if you have said something please repeat
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<water> well, the arrow system and its predecessor are both based on one type of object.
<water> for the arrow system, it's shapes which are actual arrows.
<water> for the arrow system, it's shapes which are actual arrows.
<BlackPhoenix> mmm... what you mean under arrows? ----> ?
<water> for the language, it's something similar to logical modalities.
<water> i mean that an arrow leads from one object to another.
<tcn> hmmmmm... s/arrow/byte/
<tcn> or s/arrow/dword/
<water> and that's it.  you could call it a C language struct with exactly two pointers.
<water> but it supports building information and knowledge by collections of arrows.
<tcn> in Arrow, everything is an arrow.. in a prototype-based OO system, everything is an object.. in a computer, everything is a bit.
<water> tcn: thanks.
<BlackPhoenix> well, I don't know what to say... my example in Java is on my pages and all UA constructions could be formed in a mere tree... maybe, you mean the same...
<tcn> BlackPhoenix: what's your page?
<BlackPhoenix> tcn: you mean where? or what theme of?
<tcn> where?
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<tcn> hehe
<tcn> brian- how does an arrow collection translate to bits? linked list?
10:50pm
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<BlackPhoenix> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/2320/ua/ Only don't say you hate Geocities, I don't like popup windows too but it is the most affordable and convenient variant for me, while...
<water> phoenix: your page isn't available.
<tcn> fortunately lynx doesn't support popups :)
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<water> tcn: a linked list should work, but most arrow collections within a system will not be isolated at all.
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<tcn> I should look at your squeak code
<water> the code on the site isn't functional yet.
<water> i have my own code which is somewhat functional, but requires very much care to run.
<BlackPhoenix> but specification of the language? is there anywhere?
<BlackPhoenix> at least...
<water> the human language that i created?
<tcn> i'd like to translate it to Forth, or some simple language like that
<BlackPhoenix> hmm... you mean this language is not formal? or what means "human"?
<water> the human language does have a very formal definition.
<BlackPhoenix> I see you like squeak there... I even don't realize what it is.
<water> (human language=spoken language)
<water> abi: squeak
<abi> it has been said that squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/
<water> abi: squeak is also at http://www.squeak.org/
<abi> okay, water.
<BlackPhoenix> well, you mean your language is intended to be spoken... why then it has code in squeak?
<water> well, Arrow is coded in Squeak.  the human language is different from Arrow.
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<water> hi ruiner
<_ruiner_> billy....woohoo!
<_ruiner_> hi water
<BlackPhoenix> As for me, I think UA could be used as general language for exchanging ideas... but while I don't outstand it...
<billyboof> hey ruiner... whats up
<_ruiner_> not much
<_ruiner_> working on logos
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<water> tcn: you should know that a current Arrow implementation problem is laziness: if an Arrow references itself, then a strict evaluator will deadlock.
<water> tcn: that's the problem with the Squeak code on the web site.
11:00pm
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<water> hi, jae
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<tcn> water: I just like other languages better than Squeak.. ones that are more portable, faster, smaller, ..
<jae> water: hi... (wondering what I do here...)
<water> i only chose squeak for practical reasons.
<water> abi: tunes?
<abi> tunes is probably in my head or a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system or to programming languages what the internet is to computer networks
<BlackPhoenix> ooh... must be I find the difference between our languages... I intend UA to be even language-independent language... ;) if I understand what I intended to say... :)
<water> i intend the same for arrow
<tcn> squeak isn't bad to start with
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<tcn> I gotta admit, it's pretty nifty
<water> tcn: it has useful tools, including the GUI apps (like the code browser).
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<water> tcn: the real downside is the language itself.
<tcn> because it's not functional?
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<water> because classes make it complicated.
<tcn> water: hey, do you feel like explaining a few basic arrow operations, right now? (so I can try coding them in forth)
<water> ok.
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<tcn> cool. I've got lots of paper :)
11:10pm
<water> 'reverse' (or 'inverse') returns an arrow with references swapped.
<water> 'compose' takes two arrows, checks to see if they meet at a single node (in series) and returns a new arrow.  i can give a more formal definition, too.
<_QZ> hmm, compinents direct is the only place on pricewatch that has the g400 max and its selling it for $20 more than matrox suggests
<_QZ> s/compinents/components/
<tcn> water: if they don't meet at a single node, it doesn't return an arrow?
<water> well, 'compose' and 'reverse' are really relations, not operations.
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<water> i'm not sure that forth can handle arrow very easily.
<water> self would probably be better.
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<tcn> i think Forth can do it
<BlackPhoenix> water: btw what is your email?
<water> i have two email addresses: BRice@vinson.navy.mil and water@tscnet.com
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<water> i'd like to see your homepage when it is available, phoenix.
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<water> i'd like to see your homepage when it is available, phoenix.
<BlackPhoenix> !!! I have got them (emails) between disconnects... ;)
11:20pm
<BlackPhoenix> I am not sure I have understood what you have said... rephrase?
<tcn> geocities says "not found"
<water> rephrase what?
<water> oh yes.  i cannot view your web page.
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<tcn> water: when compose returns an arrow, what 2 things does it point at?
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<BlackPhoenix> not found??? well then I understand what you mean "when it is available"... Rephrase is not wanted.
<BlackPhoenix> water: btw what email is preferrable?
<water> it's 0-slot (tail) points at the 0-slot (tail) of the first arrow.  its 1-slot (head) points at the 1-slot (head) of the second arrow in the series.  a diagram makes it look like vector addition.
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<BlackPhoenix> oops... either Geocities works incorrectly or someone have cracked my page there...
<tcn> in compose, do both heads have to meet? or can the tails meet?
<jae> uhm... can someone help me with the Tunes CVS?  I can login ok, but when I try checkout, it fails with `Fatal Error, aborting' and `guest: no such user'
<tcn> (i.e., are arrows bidirectional?)
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<tcn> jae: try anonymous ?
<water> a head of one and a tail of another must reference a common arrow
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<tcn> I get it
<jae> tcn: I did it exactly as the www.tunes.org listed it (and I know my way around CVS pretty well)
<_QZ> who sells the celery sandwhich?
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<jae> Now, I do run a pretty recent CVS from CVS' CVS ;-) but I updated a dozen projects just a couple  hours ago, and all was well.
<tcn> jae: I dunno.. you should email tril@tunes.org
<tcn> he runs the machine
11:30pm
<jae> tcn: will do, thanks.
<tcn> you can download a .tar.bz2 snapshot
<BlackPhoenix> water: btw what email is preferrable?
<abi> i already had it that way, BlackPhoenix.
<tcn> stupid bot
<BlackPhoenix> ...
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<water> phoenix: the water@tscnet.com would be better.
* water/#tunes slaps abi around a bit with a large trout
<tcn> crap, I'm gonna be up all night.. I took some ephedra..
<BlackPhoenix> You cannot believe me but in File Manager all pages are available at Geocities but in reality...
<water> GeoCities is often like that.
<BlackPhoenix> I check it out too... I know it but I don't know why.
<tcn> brian: any other Arrow operations?
<BlackPhoenix> oops it is error phrase... omit it
<water> well, the others are not so basic.  they depend on an environment, in general.
<BlackPhoenix> but I am not a bot... Honestly
<tcn> abi is a bot
<tcn> abi, are you a bot?
<abi> wish i knew, tcn
<tcn> abi, what are you?
<abi> i think i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut
<tcn> see?
<abi> tcn: bugger all, i dunno
<water> tcn: and a lot of them are relations, not operations.
<water> abi: what is tunes?
<abi> tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system
<water> abi: what is arrow?
<abi> hmmm... arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should.
<BlackPhoenix> abi is fine girl...
<BlackPhoenix> abi: what is life?
<abi> i haven't a clue, blackphoenix
<BlackPhoenix> hung up? sorry...
11:40pm
<tcn> water: I'm checking your paper.. I found some parts that make sense to me :)
<water> tcn: ok
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<tcn> slots refer to arrows, not slots. that helps :)
<water> ok
<_QZ> wysiwyg://144/http://www.dudecomputer.com/
<_QZ> nice url :)
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<_QZ> can any1 explain that to me?
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<tcn> water: Suppose I have 2 arrows, A and B, that meet at C.  Does that mean B1=C and C1=A ?
<water> explain what?
<water> no, that means that A1=B1=C or A1=B0=C or ...
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11:50pm
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<water> anything on your mind, phoenix?
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<water> wb, tcn
<_ruiner_> wb tcn
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<tcn> water- been to the library a lot since you got back?
<water> definitely.
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<tcn> that musta sucked, being stuck on a ship
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<tcn> you just can't get really good material over the net
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<water> well, i partly disagree, but my net access at sea was terrible.
<tcn> let's qualify that: you can't get any good *old* stuff
<_QZ> nite
<tcn> later
<water> ok. i agree there
<water> bye bye
<BlackPhoenix> water: I just have printed your draft... maybe something will come to my mind soon... but connect worsen with each minute so I am not sure you get know my opinion right now
<water> phoenix: ok
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0604
IRC log ended Fri Jun  4 00:00:00 1999